This topic contains 112 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  james 2 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #97507

    Justrunfast
    Participant

    Saying CO ONLY ran 22.8 is downplaying what 22.8 is, Add on top of that CO has one of the smallest differentials between the first and second 200m 1.57 add that altogether and you have a world and Olympic champion. For clarity most world class women run between 1.8-2 seconds difference between 200s she was doing 1.5!

    PSD is one of the most talented athletes we have ever had and it’s a real shame injuries stopped her progression. She never broke 23 because as senior athlete she ran 200 twice. Nice try though

    Like I said I’d like to be proved wrong but history says otherwise. You’ve gotta have something in your armory to get you down to super fast times. All the women on our all time list who have run 50.0 have either done one of the following:

    1. 22. in the 200m
    2. Ran a quality time in 400 hurdles
    3. 2.05 or below 800m
    (The last two being real indicators of extremely good speed endurance and high lactic tolerance)

    I don’t understand why athletes in this countries strengths aren’t coached to be as close to world class as possible, the rest will follow. We constantly try to improve everything and end up with mediocre performances.

    We shall revisit at the end of the season….

    #97515

    RunUnlimited
    Participant
    Saying CO ONLY ran 22.8 is downplaying what 22.8 is, Add on top of that CO has one of the smallest differentials between the first and second 200m 1.57 add that altogether and you have a world and Olympic champion. For clarity most world class women run between 1.8-2 seconds difference between 200s she was doing 1.5!

    PSD is one of the most talented athletes we have ever had and it’s a real shame injuries stopped her progression. She never broke 23 because as senior athlete she ran 200 twice. Nice try though

    Like I said I’d like to be proved wrong but history says otherwise. You’ve gotta have something in your armory to get you down to super fast times. All the women on our all time list who have run 50.0 have either done one of the following:

    1. 22. in the 200m
    2. Ran a quality time in 400 hurdles
    3. 2.05 or below 800m
    (The last two being real indicators of extremely good speed endurance and high lactic tolerance)

    I don’t understand why athletes in this countries strengths aren’t coached to be as close to world class as possible, the rest will follow. We constantly try to improve everything and end up with mediocre performances.

    We shall revisit at the end of the season….

    Just like to add that perhaps the two greatest “what-if’s” we ever had in the 400m were Nicola Sanders and Katherine Merry. Merry had the 200m speed that you mentioned and was developing into one of the world’s finest 400m of her day. I remain convinced that had she not suffered the career-ending injury in 2001, she would have at *least* won a medal at the World Championships that year, if not the gold. AND probably smashed Kathy Cook’s then-British record to do so, such was her form that year.
    If fact, Merry might have been good enough to become Britain’s first ever sub-49 second 400m runner… And I feel that Nicola Sanders might have been in that same bracket too. Running almost sub 50 seconds indoors for 400m is truly world class and most of the woman on the all time outdoors lists that are around Sanders’ indoor 400m best, either ran sub 49 secs or got very close to it. Such a shame that consistent, nagging injuries prevented her from reaching her full potential too.

    Thank the heaven’s above that CO came around when she did and had the amazing career that she did. Hats off to her for her persistence to be one of the few women to win 2 400m gold medals at the World Championships.

    Hopefully some of the runners that have been mentioned earlier in this thread will show some of the qualities you highlight and start to make their mark in the event. 🙂

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  RunUnlimited.
    #97527

    james
    Participant

    CO had one quality that is necessary for the top elite… not constantly getting injured when it matters; the level of injuries with our athletes is and always has been still too high and the comments about Merry who medalled in Sydney are relevant ; she changed up to 400 too late.

    #97528

    james
    Participant
    JRF

    The season has barely started, its likely that Nielsen and SBD will run a lot faster later on.
    We know they are capable of low 51’s, so I’m sure they both have ambitions about what side of 51 flat they want to be.

    Not a cat in hells chance of the athletes you noted doing low 51s this season imo.

    #97544

    RunUnlimited
    Participant

    Outrageously optimistic prediction for Dina Asher Smith….

    She’ll run 21.8 something this season, either at the European Championships, or during one of the “mid season” Diamond League events.

    (*PS* Not actually that outrageous a prediction to make. 😉 )

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  RunUnlimited.
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  RunUnlimited.
    #97548

    SteveK26
    Participant

    Philipo wrote…..
    Not a cat in hells chance of the athletes you noted doing low 51s this season imo.

    [/quote]

    Why is that, Philipo? Low 51’s is Emily Diamond territory, so why not Nielsen and SBD?
    The only reservation I have about Nielsen is her commitment, and the only doubt I have surrounding SBD would be her state of health.

    As I said earlier they are already in 51 territory, so why cant they keep improving?

    I don’t say you are wrong but what is your rationale?

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  SteveK26.
    #97580

    RunUnlimited
    Participant

    Outrageous optimistic prediction part deux, this time for Reece Prescod…

    He’ll run sub 10 seconds in the 100m and very close to sub 20 seconds in the 200m this season.

    #97589

    Matt
    Participant

    I can’t share your optimism Steve about our 400 athletes unfortunately. I think Diamond is as good now as she’ll get. SBD is the best of the current bunch and may get back to 51 mid this year. Who knows maybe she can progress next year. I can’t see either of the Nielsens or the Hyltons progressing significantly, if it was going to happen the signs would have been there last season. Laviai’s outdoor PB 52.25 dates back to 2015.

    Ama Pipi has produced some reasonable times in the states but has failed to back them up over here.

    Long term I think Amber Anning looks like a good prospect, she moved up to 4th on u17 300 all time list last season and won a bronze over 400 at the commonwealth youth games

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Matt.
    #97597

    Jeremy
    Participant

    Treadwater – I agree – I would love to share Steve’s optimism, but with the 400 there are so many clues nowadays to success. If only we could find an athlete with Kathy Smallwood Cook’s stats from 100 to 400 (Dina anyone? 🙂 ).

    Diamond has the 200 pedigree but does not seem to have the endurance, I feel. SBD again does not have the speed to get to the next level. I hope Laviai Nielsen can improve, but the maths are not on her side. So, I believe we have a couple of contenders. Maya Bruney is, of course, one of them – been following her progress for the last 3 pr so years, and she has the weaponry – and her strength at the end of the 400 is already showing. Finette, too, has that same potential. I am waiting for Ama Pipi’s post-college career, where she can focus on competition.

    I’m also with you on Amber Anning – one to really watch!

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Jeremy.
    #97600

    Justrunfast
    Participant

    lol @steve

    I definitely explained why the rationale is there…..

    #97601

    Justrunfast
    Participant

    Like I said I’d liked to be proved wrong but don’t see it happening

    #97602

    Justrunfast
    Participant

    Maybe a little off topic but at the end of the you have to have something in your locker that other athletes can’t do or you are significantly better than them at.

    We need to get away from the idea just training hard is enough, the level we are talking about EVERYBODY trains hard. All the standout athletes we speak about are extremely good at one to the point where others can’t live with that for example Reece Prescod can run .84 10m splits in his last 40m only other person who could do that? Bolt.

    #97604

    Jeremy
    Participant

    JRF – I get your rationale. With the 400, we have enough evidence now to understand what it takes. Anything else is wishful thinking. We might get a crop of 51 + athletes (great for relay), but the next level takes one of the aspects you outlined (200 speed the most pertinent, I guess). I think of vastly talented athletes like Floria Gueï who cannot cross the threshold.

    #97605

    james
    Participant
    lol @steve

    I definitely explained why the rationale is there…..

    Agree very much. Rationale is that they aren’t good enough or fast enough,imo, and in some cases perhaps not consistently healthy enough. Sorry, Steve, they will not cut the mustard for me.
    A life time following track here indicates that after some outstanding world class athlete appears in one particular event there is no replication in that event for years if not decades. Need I give you examples ??. COs performances will last for decades AFAIAC.

    Never forget that fundamentally the British attitude is a love of giving of your best mediocrity with a few great athletes breaking the mould with outstanding talent and ability and hard work, not so much in track and field any more.
    That is why the performances and records in both track and field have stagnated, particularly in mens events;
    Christie, Regis, Thomas, Seb, Crammy, now Mo for sure, Jackson, Rowland, Akabusi, Smith, Edwards, Backley.

    It would be fine to think that the professional set ups, funding, medical assistance offered to athletes will bring forth a torrent of new great athletes.
    It won’t.

    #97616

    dave
    Participant

    lol @steve

    I definitely explained why the rationale is there…..

    Agree very much. Rationale is that they aren’t good enough or fast enough,imo, and in some cases perhaps not consistently healthy enough. Sorry, Steve, they will not cut the mustard for me.
    A life time following track here indicates that after some outstanding world class athlete appears in one particular event there is no replication in that event for years if not decades. Need I give you examples ??. COs performances will last for decades AFAIAC.

    Never forget that fundamentally the British attitude is a love of giving of your best mediocrity with a few great athletes breaking the mould with outstanding talent and ability and hard work, not so much in track and field any more.
    That is why the performances and records in both track and field have stagnated, particularly in mens events;
    Christie, Regis, Thomas, Seb, Crammy, now Mo for sure, Jackson, Rowland, Akabusi, Smith, Edwards, Backley.

    It would be fine to think that the professional set ups, funding, medical assistance offered to athletes will bring forth a torrent of new great athletes.
    It won’t.

    we do as well as we should for the size of our country and not all athletes can be world beaters, as for injuries, do you have any evidence that brit athletes get injured more than others? i remain to be convinced

    #97619

    SteveK26
    Participant

    My goodness me!

    Suggesting that SBD and Lavaia Nielsen should be able to run in the 51’s this year has brought a torrent of derision down upon me. Both athletes have already run 51’s in the past, and are both still young. I guess we’ll see.

    Bruney and Agyapong have a chance to get into the 51’s by virtue of their 200 speed.

    I’m not saying these women will all achieve 51’s this year, ( we’ll be lucky if all 4 have injury-free seasons), but its possible.

    No doubt you guys will turn out to be correct, though, and our Euro relay line up for the final will be Diamond, Clarke, Pipi and Doyle.

    #97620

    james
    Participant

    dear All…

    these sort of threads are very amusing on this forum, when the athlete de jour is discussed to the nth degree, all wise after the fact, much like guessing the England football squad for russia, 4 years ago Luke Shaw was all the rage blah blah blah, …

    Well, I wish I could dig out the thread I wrote two years ago when I first saw Reese Prescod, and thought, wow, what a unit (I dont think he even won that race) then he got injured. I maintain he will rewrite British records but let the lad develop at his own rate and enjoy the journey.

    No one has mentioned Desiree Henry, so let me put her case… no doubt she has 100 speed, but I dont believe that is her best distance, but taking on 400, which I feel is her natural event, takes courage. If she comes back strong from her surgery I would like her to at least try to get involved in the 4*400 relay.

    The Neilsen and Hylton twins have not progressed how I had hoped … potential is all well and good, but I think there is a strong case that all this funding, too early, with the trappings of minor celeb (sponsorships, social media followings, invites to the great and good events) without actually winning anything only ends up paying for their university education. A little hunger, metaphorically speaking, wouldn’t go amiss…

    Lorriane Ugen has become my favourite ‘outsider’, that final leg of the relay at CG games was worthy of a real pat on the back, she doesnt attract all the glamour of others who have achieved far less and I hope she stays injury free and takes confidence into her long jump.

    I always enjoy a season where someone emerges to get excited about, it mostly happens when least expected, and I do hope I am not disappointed as I have been by some of my previous season suggestions (in recent years Ada’ora Chigbo and Yasmin Miller to name a couple).

    #97621

    SteveK26
    Participant

    Can’t say I disagree with any of that, CarterHatch.
    I’ve always been a big fan of Desiree Henry, but she seems injury and accident prone. She bulked up quite a bit a couple of years ago and I’m not sure all that muscle will help her 400 times. I’d love to see her make a strong 100/200 challenge this year.

    What do you make of MHS ? I’m starting to believe he might take down the British record this season. I think he has the ability and his Stateside experience seems to be doing him good.

    #97622

    jjimbojames
    Participant

    This forum! I don’t think Steve was saying those ladies would go on to be CO…if they did, she wouldn’t have the legend status she has at the distance – how many women (worldwide) have won multiple WC titles?

    MHS has all the tools to take 44.3. I wish a few more athletes would take the leap of faith and try something new.

    Henry – interesting to hear Schippers say they’ve gone back to the 2015/16 method re reps etc. All of Rana’s crew seemed to have bulked up and not benefited, so Henry may also slim down again. If UKA want relay medals, they should invest in sending multiple teams to e.g. Penn relays and get people to try new things, rather than lots of warm weather camps for 7 or 8 athletes who will not make the team! I doubt too many will leave their comfort zone without someone higher up giving them the shove

    #97624

    james
    Participant
    dear All…

    these sort of threads are very amusing on this forum, when the athlete de jour is discussed to the nth degree, all wise after the fact, much like guessing the England football squad for russia, 4 years ago Luke Shaw was all the rage blah blah blah, …

    Well, I wish I could dig out the thread I wrote two years ago when I first saw Reese Prescod, and thought, wow, what a unit (I dont think he even won that race) then he got injured. I maintain he will rewrite British records but let the lad develop at his own rate and enjoy the journey.

    No one has mentioned Desiree Henry, so let me put her case… no doubt she has 100 speed, but I dont believe that is her best distance, but taking on 400, which I feel is her natural event, takes courage. If she comes back strong from her surgery I would like her to at least try to get involved in the 4*400 relay.

    The Neilsen and Hylton twins have not progressed how I had hoped … potential is all well and good, but I think there is a strong case that all this funding, too early, with the trappings of minor celeb (sponsorships, social media followings, invites to the great and good events) without actually winning anything only ends up paying for their university education. A little hunger, metaphorically speaking, wouldn’t go amiss…

    Lorriane Ugen has become my favourite ‘outsider’, that final leg of the relay at CG games was worthy of a real pat on the back, she doesnt attract all the glamour of others who have achieved far less and I hope she stays injury free and takes confidence into her long jump.

    I always enjoy a season where someone emerges to get excited about, it mostly happens when least expected, and I do hope I am not disappointed as I have been by some of my previous season suggestions (in recent years Ada’ora Chigbo and Yasmin Miller to name a couple).

    Carter may I salute your pertinent observations in your 4th para about young Brit athletes becoming funded, minor celebrities for no good reason; I have passionately believed this now for years but sadly it will continue.

    #97625

    james
    Participant
    This forum! I don’t think Steve was saying those ladies would go on to be CO…if they did, she wouldn’t have the legend status she has at the distance – how many women (worldwide) have won multiple WC titles?

    MHS has all the tools to take 44.3. I wish a few more athletes would take the leap of faith and try something new.

    Henry – interesting to hear Schippers say they’ve gone back to the 2015/16 method re reps etc. All of Rana’s crew seemed to have bulked up and not benefited, so Henry may also slim down again. If UKA want relay medals, they should invest in sending multiple teams to e.g. Penn relays and get people to try new things, rather than lots of warm weather camps for 7 or 8 athletes who will not make the team! I doubt too many will leave their comfort zone without someone higher up giving them the shove

    Well said on your last sentence about the PAMPERED ONES. Mostly over hyped strongly in the search for special ones. Not just athletics, by the way; look at all the hyped up soccer nobodies ,
    earning fortunes and ending up being has beens , having achieved done sweet b….r all.
    Only a few weeks to find that happens again in Russia.!
    One of the great curses of the age is the media: not just the national and regional media, but the frigging social media to boot.

    #97626

    james
    Participant

    @stevek26

    I have worked with many very gifted young people on the autistic spectrum and it is a joy when the share with you the one thing they might excel at … When MHS first emerged, exploded more like, I wasn’t aware that he may have such a background… if true, I hope that he has the right kind of team around him, that forgive his failings, as we should, and support him to do the best time he can, which, as an outsider, when the conditions are right, and perhaps not in a championship when the pressure is greatest, I don’t doubt he will break the British record…

    @philipo

    yes, the pampered generation will be an interesting dissertation in years to come. I would much prefer a results based system, open to all, and then perhaps we might get athletes actually turning up for national championships, or their clubs!

    @all

    I have to say that Henry always looks amazingly well conditioned, and I am sure there are a few magazines that might offer her some work if she so desired 😉 But maybe I am hoping too much for a stab at 400, but a 52.27 is not shabby…

    I read a little about Thomas Staines (both his parents will be well known to this forum) and at 2m tall, and only coming to athletics recently (he previously focused on ‘soccer’ uhhh) I wonder what he might do over 400/800, certainly have one eye on his results.

    I would encourage Jazmin Sawyers to give triple jump a try (her background in heptathlon and bobsleigh suggests she adapts to new events)

    #97628

    RunUnlimited
    Participant
    I would encourage Jazmin Sawyers to give triple jump a try (her background in heptathlon and bobsleigh suggests she adapts to new events)

    FINALLY, somebody else who thinks that this would be a good idea for Sawyers to try out the TJ. She has been an impressive performer in the LJ, often performing her season’s or even personal bests in pressure situations in major championships and other important situations.
    However I’m not sure she’ll ever be able to get into the 6.90 – 7m range to properly challenge for medals at a World Champ and Olympic level. She may occasionally get a freakish 6.80+ jump in favourable conditions (like she did in 2016 to win a silver medal at the European Championships, with a 2.6+ tailwind), but I can’t see her doing it consistently.

    So I don’t see why she shouldn’t give the Triple Jump a try at some point, especially given her multi-event background…. In fact, I want more of our long jumpers to give the TJ more serious consideration, or at least, our middling level long jumpers, in the men’s and women’s ranks.

    #97630

    SteveK26
    Participant

    Jimbo

    Thanks for that.
    Of course I wasn’t suggesting those 4 athletes going on to achieve ‘superstar’ status.

    Just that they might run 51’s this year.

    Carter

    I watched an interview MHS gave recently (forget where) and he seemed as happy as Larry in his current set up. He might be on the autistic scale somewhere but if he is its hardly noticeable these days.

    #97631

    Richard
    Participant

    I would encourage Jazmin Sawyers to give triple jump a try (her background in heptathlon and bobsleigh suggests she adapts to new events)

    FINALLY, somebody else who thinks that this would be a good idea for Sawyers to try out the TJ. She has been an impressive performer in the LJ, often performing her season’s or even personal bests in pressure situations in major championships and other important situations.
    However I’m not sure she’ll ever be able to get into the 6.90 – 7m range to properly challenge for medals at a World Champ and Olympic level. She may occasionally get a freakish 6.80+ jump in favourable conditions (like she did in 2016 to win a silver medal at the European Championships, with a 2.6+ tailwind), but I can’t see her doing it consistently.

    So I don’t see why she shouldn’t give the Triple Jump a try at some point, especially given her multi-event background…. In fact, I want more of our long jumpers to give the TJ more serious consideration, or at least, our middling level long jumpers, in the men’s and women’s ranks.

    Totally agree with that last point. For me, a heck of a lot more long jumpers (plus other sprinting/jumping types) should at least try triple jump. Since the women’s event has become established, I have noticed that the UK hardly ever has a representative at age-group champs, and I think that is largely because a lot of athletes who may have the potential to do well at it never even try it. It does seem to me that other countries’ top long jumpers are more likely to have a TJ PB on their stats than ours.

    I think this issue now also applies on the male side where we also have relatively few championship performers at age-group level. It does seem surprising that relatively few athletes have been inspired to try and emulate the likes of Edwards, Idowu and Connor. Perhaps that is setting the bar quite high as all of these were the best in the world for at least one year, but it would be nice to see someone new at least reach the level of an Achike, a Herbert, a Moore or an Alsop.

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