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  • #10427111

    james
    Participant

    I’m with you Philipo. Our women have some hope, but, at least for now, our men are concentrated in the sprints (with MHS being alone in the 400). We rely on single ‘stars’ coming through. I have hope for Duckworth and Miller to add to the men’s side, but otherwise (unless I am having a blank), we are on a par with other second tier countries.

    langford, butchart, miller and duckworth all have the potential to win world medals in future

    Miller is far too inconsistent to medal his CG was a great outlier and he knows it.
    Langford talks the talk and I now await next year some ability to beat the top guys. I am sceptical about his medal possibilities.
    Duckworth will have to improve some running events before he medals ; a very talented guy like KJT but that’s not enough, if you throw away 150 points; time will tell however.

    #10428311

    Jeremy
    Participant

    Philipo – each of the prospects has a weakness such as Duckworth’s 1500m. But, if we’re thinking about future potential, it is down to that small handful of men to come through. Yes, Miller is inconsistent – as he has been recently, but he has it in him. Agree on Langford. But the 800m is volatile, with such a merry-go-round of talent globally. It’s random almost on a European level.

    #10430011

    Martin
    Participant

    I’m afraid I think the pessimism/cynicism is partly based on an unrealistic memory of our ‘Glorious’ past. A series of classy middle distance runners in an age before the African invasion is an unrealistic comparitor. A europe of 52 countries is always going to cough up more competition than a europe of 25 – pre USSR/Yugoslav break up.

    #10430111

    david robbie
    Participant
    I’m afraid I think the pessimism/cynicism is partly based on an unrealistic memory of our ‘Glorious’ past. A series of classy middle distance runners in an age before the African invasion is an unrealistic comparitor. A europe of 52 countries is always going to cough up more competition than a europe of 25 – pre USSR/Yugoslav break up.

    we will probably get the usual amount of medals we do in world competition, between 6 and 8

    #10430211

    Jeremy
    Participant

    I wouldn’t say pessimistic, just realistic given the current talent horizon. I also don’t think things are necessarily outclassed by a glorious GB past. African runners have been making a mark for far longer than what might be thought. Kip Keino, Temu, Ben Jipcho, Gammoudi, Filbert Bayi, Akii Bua, Henry Rono, Mike Boit. Aouita, and so on, were all greats in the 60s/70s/80s. Granted it took until the late 80s for the women to come through. I also feel the Eastern Block was probably more powerful back in the day than its broken up remnants (for various reasons).

    #10430311

    james
    Participant

    where did Irishman get his facts from.
    25 versus 52 countries; most of the countries competing this year played no part in the medals stats… so here goes.
    In a typical “ancient” year ,1978, 19 countries won medals in the European Champs, compared to 28 countries winning medals this year; the pre- USSR stuff and pre- Yugoslavia is NOT relevant.
    The Break up of the USSR produced not countries of major medal winning significance but those of no medal winning significance or genuine ” competition”, e.g. all the “stans” who are now in existence and some of those are in Asian competition NOT European. Ah, Yes, Belarus !
    Most of the major medal winning countries then and now were sovereign States and hovered up medals with the exception of EG and USSR. The top two countries in 1978 were USSR and East Germany who provided major cheating competition, and EG aint around anymore..EG provided competition then and not now; more competition then , not less. The opposite of your assertion, in that case..
    As for the Yugo break up it produced some countries that have no decent competitive athletes Bosnia,Kosovo, Montenegro etc with only Serbia and Croatia( thus 2 countries in 2018 as opposed to one Yugoslavia medal in 1978) getting less than a handful
    of medals this year. They were not offering much competition in GB quality events !!!!! I agree that Czechosklovakia is now split two countries !!; well noted.

    Your point generally is not well made and does not hold water in my opinion.

    May I point out that the “golden age” you and others constantly use in posts never existed(all those boring GB world Records and our great guys running times that would have beaten the modern wonder boys of East Africa today) and I did not say so, but the top quality GB athletes did NOT just exist in the middle distances; a quarter of a century ago we had a handful of outstanding 400 metre runners; were you around then??. GB also had a couple of rather good 5000m runners and even Brendan in the ” ancient ” past. I recall at least 3 world rated High Jumpers in earlier times and two or more fine Javelin throwers.( Where the F are they today in those events).

    One ought to get facts right and just because we have some fine sprinters, as in the past, does not mean GB are getting better in Track and Field, despite the stuff peddled by some on this Board.
    We are spending a hell of a lot of Lottery money per annum now that was not thrown around in the past, whatever posters like to believe. Is it worth it. All the mollycoddling is meant to produce “the goods”.. I remain unconvinced about the full benefits.

    #10430711

    david robbie
    Participant
    where did Irishman get his facts from.
    25 versus 52 countries; most of the countries competing this year played no part in the medals stats… so here goes.
    In a typical “ancient” year ,1978, 19 countries won medals in the European Champs, compared to 28 countries winning medals this year; the pre- USSR stuff and pre- Yugoslavia is NOT relevant.
    The Break up of the USSR produced not countries of major medal winning significance but those of no medal winning significance or genuine ” competition”, e.g. all the “stans” who are now in existence and some of those are in Asian competition NOT European. Ah, Yes, Belarus !
    Most of the major medal winning countries then and now were sovereign States and hovered up medals with the exception of EG and USSR. The top two countries in 1978 were USSR and East Germany who provided major cheating competition, and EG aint around anymore..EG provided competition then and not now; more competition then , not less. The opposite of your assertion, in that case..
    As for the Yugo break up it produced some countries that have no decent competitive athletes Bosnia,Kosovo, Montenegro etc with only Serbia and Croatia( thus 2 countries in 2018 as opposed to one Yugoslavia medal in 1978) getting less than a handful
    of medals this year. They were not offering much competition in GB quality events !!!!! I agree that Czechosklovakia is now split two countries !!; well noted.

    Your point generally is not well made and does not hold water in my opinion.

    May I point out that the “golden age” you and others constantly use in posts never existed(all those boring GB world Records and our great guys running times that would have beaten the modern wonder boys of East Africa today) and I did not say so, but the top quality GB athletes did NOT just exist in the middle distances; a quarter of a century ago we had a handful of outstanding 400 metre runners; were you around then??. GB also had a couple of rather good 5000m runners and even Brendan in the ” ancient ” past. I recall at least 3 world rated High Jumpers in earlier times and two or more fine Javelin throwers.( Where the F are they today in those events).

    One ought to get facts right and just because we have some fine sprinters, as in the past, does not mean GB are getting better in Track and Field, despite the stuff peddled by some on this Board.
    We are spending a hell of a lot of Lottery money per annum now that was not thrown around in the past, whatever posters like to believe. Is it worth it. All the mollycoddling is meant to produce “the goods”.. I remain unconvinced about the full benefits.

    there wasnt a golden age, the things you have described all happened in different periods, we have consistently won between 6-8 medals in world events every time they have been held since the late 70s, the current crop of 400 metere runners are comparable to the 400 metre runners from the 90s – (rooney, mhs and yousif make up 3 of the top 8 all time uk 400 metres runners) farah blows every single 5000 metre runner from the past out the water, butchart is 3rd all time too, grabarz and baker make up 2 0f the uk all time top 4 in the high jump, ill give you the javelin 800 and 1500 though as for the fine sprinters from the past, we never had more than one at any one time in the mens events now we have 2 or 3 in both the 100 and 200 and we have our best female sprinter by some margin competing at the moment plus 3 to 4 others of a better standard than ever before

    as for the lottery money its a pittance and from what i have read on here athletes in the 80s were amking more money than they do now

    we are in a bit of a transition period at moment with our world class athletes of the last few years – farah, CO, ennis, rutherford, grabarz, greene all either retired or nearing the end of their careers but we still have some with others coming through – proctor, hitchon, das, muir, hughes, prescod, nmb, gemili, mhs, langford, pozzi ,miller, duckworth, bradshaw, kjt, ugen – have world level medal potential

    lansiquot, awuah, nielsen, lake, ogbeta, emerson, rowden, yee, norris – are all young athletes who had decent breakthroughs this year too

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  david robbie.
    #10432111

    Gavin
    Participant
    I wouldn’t say pessimistic, just realistic given the current talent horizon. I also don’t think things are necessarily outclassed by a glorious GB past. African runners have been making a mark for far longer than what might be thought. Kip Keino, Temu, Ben Jipcho, Gammoudi, Filbert Bayi, Akii Bua, Henry Rono, Mike Boit. Aouita, and so on, were all greats in the 60s/70s/80s. …

    Yes, they have, but they were relatively few and far between until the mid/late-80s. It was only then that Africa started to show anything like the depth/dominance that they have nowadays.

    #10432211

    Jeremy
    Participant

    Luckyspikes – I agree with you about the incredible depth that has developed out of East Africa largely due to the promise/dream of life-changing earnings. But the competition from African runners was still remarkable in the late 60s, 70s and 80s, in addition to the nefarious state-sponsored competition of the Eastern Block.

    So the question is – are our athletes facing greater competition now than in the so-called ‘golden days’? I would say, no.

    I agree with Drobbie that it is easy to lump the past into a single set of performances/results – blurring the years into one. That makes it hard to compare fairly with the here-and-now.

    As for the lottery, let’s get real. Of course, it is pittance, as you say. Thinking or believing that it provides big bucks to spoiled athletes is parochial thinking. To see the numbers is to see not much more than junior/mid-level employees in business or teaching. And as we can appreciate, qualifying for lottery funding is tough.

    That said, we are at a period of transition. I read an article only a few days ago in L’équipe, and the lament was France’s aging athlete population (especially in view of 2020 and even 2024), versus the young set that are coming through in the UK as well as a small number other European countries. So there’s hope. No?

    #10432311

    james
    Participant

    Please do not compare Grabarcz and your other guy mentioned, with Smith and Dalton Grant; if you check out the A-T lists of GB athletes, the number of performances of the highest level by Smith( 8 times at 2.36 and above) and Grant compares very favourably with your choices, Drobbie, imo.
    Dalton the only man I recall coming into a competition at global level at 2.31m; still makes me smile at DG doing a “maddy” acc to Smith.
    Grabarcz did 2 efforts at 2.36 and above and Baker not in the class of either of the above.
    Yes, there are promising athletes today; just want to see them turn promise into top achievements against the best, some day.

    #10432411

    james
    Participant

    Of course the previous days existed when the BBC would show an entire 10K in the Nationals and even going “special” in some cases such as chasing WRs in the middle distances by our top two.; it thrilled me then, so I do not worry about the experiences of others today who have to rely on Sky and DL, with the current BBC coverage more concerned with the crass natterings of various ex athletes, well suited to todays age.
    I recall the Beeb interrupting a prog to show Backley setting a WR if my memory is correct.
    Some of you younger guys will be telling your grandchildren about the glorious Super Saturday in 2012 and the thrills of Mo; that’s in the nature of things.
    if that takes place in the middle of this century we still wont have decent throwers I assume. :negative:

    #10432511

    james
    Participant

    Hope the rather promising Indian athlete, beating her NR twice for the 400m in the Asian Games, comes through next year; about time the Indians started to do a little in a population of 1200 million. haven’t seen a fine 400m Indian runner since Milka Singh in the 1960 OG.

    #10432611

    Jeremy
    Participant

    Hima Das looks very promising. And other Indians are coming through in field events impressively – throws and jumps. What about the new Nigerian break out athlete Seyni? Don’t quite know what to make of her performance in Revereto a couple of days ago.

    #10432711

    Gavin
    Participant
    Hope the rather promising Indian athlete, beating her NR twice for the 400m in the Asian Games, comes through next year; about time the Indians started to do a little in a population of 1200 million. haven’t seen a fine 400m Indian runner since Milka Singh in the 1960 OG.

    Yes, surely India has to be the next growth area in athletics? Jinson Johnson (great name!), a 1:45 man, is a medal favourite at these Asian Games in the 800. They also have a few ‘international class’ women in the distances – the silver medalist in the Steeple, a couple of 32 minute women in the 10,000 and Lalita Babar (though I don’t know what’s happened to her since 2016). And who can forget Tintu Luka and her crazy 56s first laps in the 800?

    Today an Iranian, Hossein Keyhani, was the surprise victor in the Men’s Steeplechase at the Asian Games in an 11s PB/NR of 8:22, destroying Bahrain’s Kenyan imports in the last 500.

    #10432811

    david robbie
    Participant
    Please do not compare Grabarcz and your other guy mentioned, with Smith and Dalton Grant; if you check out the A-T lists of GB athletes, the number of performances of the highest level by Smith( 8 times at 2.36 and above) and Grant compares very favourably with your choices, Drobbie, imo.
    Dalton the only man I recall coming into a competition at global level at 2.31m; still makes me smile at DG doing a “maddy” acc to Smith.
    Grabarcz did 2 efforts at 2.36 and above and Baker not in the class of either of the above.
    Yes, there are promising athletes today; just want to see them turn promise into top achievements against the best, some day.

    here we go again, based on your own previous criteria – global medals grabarz achieved more than dalton grant, it a perfectly valid comparison smith just edges it over grabarz with a icm better pb and two world medals, grabarz edges it over grant due to having a world medal, the three are of a similar standard

    steve smith – olympic bronze, world bronze, european silver, commonwealth silver, world indoor bronze
    dalton grant – commonwealth silver, commonwealth gold, euro indoor silver, euro indoor gold, euro silver
    robbie grabarz – olympic bronze, world indoor silver, euro gold, euro silver, euro indoor silver, diamond league winner

    #10432911

    jjimbojames
    Participant

    I think it’s fair to say fields are much deeper than ever before. Take the former USSR – their three entrants would often be medal contenders, but the depth left at home are now competing (for other countries) and the cumulation of the three from each country will be making it harder to make finals. The production line of East-Africans and now the aforementioned rise from parts of Africa and Asia will continue to make it tough for all athletes.

    As such, maybe we should celebrate those that have achieved their goals, rather than simply denigrate their performances for not being as good as we wish they were.

    On a tangent, there’s rumours that not all of the Indian athletes will make it past the new IAAF gender rules. Speculation at this point but we will no doubt hear more in due course

    #10433011

    Ross
    Participant
    Please do not compare Grabarcz and your other guy mentioned, with Smith and Dalton Grant;

    Robbie Grabarz has finished 3rd and 4th at the Olympics, world indoor silver, 6th and 8th at World championships.

    Dalton Grant has finished 4th in the worlds twice and had a best Olympic finish of 9th in his qualifying group with a 2.26.

    Dalton Grant was a really good high jumper and also a lovely guy but to say “do not compare” Grabarz to him is utterly disrespectful to an Olympic medallist.

    It’s also not even like there is a history of High Jumping success in the UK that the current jumpers aren’t living up to. Prior to Steve Smiths bronze in 1996 our previous medal was achieved in 1908.

    Looking at this supposed golden age its easy to remember Cram and Thompson at the 1983 worlds. What seems to slip the memory is that we only had 5 male field eventers in those champs (the same as in 2017) and none of them made the finals. In fact the only individual mens events where the best finisher from the 1983 team was higher than the 2017 team were 1500, decathlon, triple jump and steeplechase. Meanwhile the 2017 team outperformed the 1983 team in 9 events with the other 6 drawn (for now, obviously Kyle Langford could yet be promoted to bronze).

    So please do tell me more about this amazing period in athletics. I grew up watching those guys and idolising them. I’d read about the likes of Steve Binns weekly in AW and was a huge admirer of Julian Goater. However I am not like you. I don’t have rose coloured specs about the past. Colin Reitz wouldnt have been mixing it with Mekhessi and Jager. We had lots of gaps in the team every year, and merging together periods where we had a decent performers in different events paints a false picture of what the state of the sport was back then.

    #10433411

    Mark
    Participant

    I believe it is difficult to compare different era’s.

    In the late 60’s and early 70’s our athletes were predominantly amateurs and the eastern bloc were almost full-time professionals, masquerading as servicemen and women etc. Coe and Ovett were the first athletics millionaires and replaced the “2nd Class Rail Ticket” brigade before them. The world had moved on.

    A friend of mine did the first 3 London Marathons as a vet and ran c2:45 each year. He will tell you he was nowhere and thought of himself as slow. It was an athletics event and has changed now into a mass participation event, another case of the world moving on.

    IMO we are competing well at the moment, despite the proliferation of alternative sport and leisure choices facing young people, not to mention the couch culture and junk food curse.

    The biggest challenge we face is that the grass roots is being strangled and that is ultimately where the future stars are born. If we don’t do more with facilities and support for volunteers in coaching, officiating and administration of clubs we will be failing at source and in 5 years time this thread will not be looking so rosy.

    #10433711

    Gavin
    Participant

    Schoolgirl mistake by Hima Das in the 200 semis at the Asian Games. She jumped the gun by about 0.3s!

    #10433811

    Richard
    Participant
    steve smith – olympic bronze, world bronze, european silver, commonwealth silver, world indoor bronze

    WJR too.

    The generational argument will run and run. I know that we’ve not got a great history in many of the field events in particular but if we look at the throws, we are definitely going through a largely fallow period:

    mJT: Then: Backley, Hill etc. Global medals, WRs. Now: Nothing to compare. NR 1992.

    mDT: Never been great at world level. Had the odd positive year eg 2011 with 4 over 65. Currently poor, Okoye is the one that got away. NR: 2012

    mHT: Took a long time to remove Girvan’s record. Now: decent strength in depth with some v good youngsters, but only Miller currently threatening on global stage. Still a bit erratic, but hopeful. NR: 2018

    mSP: Only Lincoln remotely approaching 20m. v poor. Like disc, never threatened much at champs level, but was better in past. NR: 1980. Myerscough 21.92 not ratified and even that’s 15 years ago.

    wJT: Then: Sanderson / Whitbread. Global medals, WRs. Following change of spec, global medal for Goldie. Now: Dire, nothing within 11m of Goldie’s 2012 NR.

    wDT: Then: Ritchie – 2 x top 10 OG finishes, not to mention Head similarly. Now: Lally, good PB, but poor in champs. NR: 1981

    wSP: Now: McKinna and a couple of others are doing OK. She’s 5th in the all time list, over a metre down on 4th. All ahead of her set their bests between 83 – 90. NR: 1988.

    wHT. Not really a “Then” yet. Hitchon got an OG bronze and has done quite well, but the 10m gap she has over the rest of the domestic pack is dreadful. NR: 2016.

    #10436811

    Gavin
    Participant

    The Men’s Pole Vault from Zurich train station (not the DL final) is streaming live today at 5.25pm until 7.20pm on https://www.firstonetv.net/Live/Switzerland/SRF-zwei–4

    #10438311

    Mark
    Participant
    The generational argument will run and run. I know that we’ve not got a great history in many of the field events in particular but if we look at the throws, we are definitely going through a largely fallow period:

    mJT: Then: Backley, Hill etc. Global medals, WRs. Now: Nothing to compare. NR 1992.

    mDT: Never been great at world level. Had the odd positive year eg 2011 with 4 over 65. Currently poor, Okoye is the one that got away. NR: 2012

    mHT: Took a long time to remove Girvan’s record. Now: decent strength in depth with some v good youngsters, but only Miller currently threatening on global stage. Still a bit erratic, but hopeful. NR: 2018

    mSP: Only Lincoln remotely approaching 20m. v poor. Like disc, never threatened much at champs level, but was better in past. NR: 1980. Myerscough 21.92 not ratified and even that’s 15 years ago.

    wJT: Then: Sanderson / Whitbread. Global medals, WRs. Following change of spec, global medal for Goldie. Now: Dire, nothing within 11m of Goldie’s 2012 NR.

    wDT: Then: Ritchie – 2 x top 10 OG finishes, not to mention Head similarly. Now: Lally, good PB, but poor in champs. NR: 1981

    wSP: Now: McKinna and a couple of others are doing OK. She’s 5th in the all time list, over a metre down on 4th. All ahead of her set their bests between 83 – 90. NR: 1988.

    wHT. Not really a “Then” yet. Hitchon got an OG bronze and has done quite well, but the 10m gap she has over the rest of the domestic pack is dreadful. NR: 2016.

    Looking at this from grass roots level, male throwing is severely hampered by bigger and stronger lads choosing Rugby, along with the Gym culture of training to look good rather than for sport. The most positive improvement is in female throws and Hammer in particular has some very good age groupers. If we can see some further development and get 2 or 3 role models (as well as SH) we could see some good results. Unfortunately the obsession with body image in the UK has had a negative effect on Shot for females.

    It is easy to be critical but looking back in time there are sure to be questions regarding the validity of so many records in explosive events.

    #10438711

    RunUnlimited
    Participant

    It is easy to be critical but looking back in time there are sure to be questions regarding the validity of so many records in explosive events.

    It can be accurately said that the vast majority of the heavy throws best marks, of either gender, from the early 1970’s all the way through to the late ’90’s, even the early 2000’s, could and should be struck off the record books. Having the likes of legendary throwers in the last decade or so like Valerie Adams, Tom Walsh, Ryan Crouser (shot), Daniel Stahl and Sandra Perkovic (Discus), Koji Murofushi and Pawel Fadjek (Hammer) are not in the Top 10 in their respective events and most of them not even close to doing so, speaks volumes about how drugs have distorted the results in athletics.

    #10443411

    Gavin
    Participant

    A terrific win by Laura Muir in the DL final!

    Houlihan in 2nd couldn’t make much ground on her in the home straight. I’ve heard/read a lot of Americans handing her the 2019 world title already. This might damp that down a bit.

    That’s Our Laura’s 8th sub-4 clocking. The rest of the British athletes in history have a total of 6 such times combined! (Holmes 2, Dobriskey 2, Tullett 1, Budd 1)

    #10443511

    david robbie
    Participant
    A terrific win by Laura Muir in the DL final!

    Houlihan in 2nd couldn’t make much ground on her in the home straight. I’ve heard/read a lot of Americans handing her the 2019 world title already. This might damp that down a bit.

    That’s Our Laura’s 8th sub-4 clocking. The rest of the British athletes in history have a total of 6 such times combined! (Holmes 2, Dobriskey 2, Tullett 1, Budd 1)

    a great run, tactically superb

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