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BBC Live Five Dive

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BBC Live Five Dive

Postby Power-of-ten-man » Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:18 pm

Well I never thought it would happen but Live Fives Athletics forum is going to self destruct.

So there should be more visitors here and at that other forum which has totaly redisigned itself to accomodate Live Five Posters

Go To:

http://athleticsdaily.proboards104.com

Not quite A.W standard but ok :lol:
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Postby Javelin Sam » Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:39 am

James Montgomery run that one down too?
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Postby michaelw » Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:42 am

The BBC have closed their forums for all sports and opened a new forum or site which seems to mix all sports together. James Montgomery did not post on the message boards for boxing, tennis, cycling, rowing etc etc which are also being closed.
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Postby Javelin Sam » Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:42 pm

you do not have to take an axe to the whole tree to make it fall....
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Postby Power-of-ten-man » Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:00 pm

Sam James has never upset me on any of my posts ...is it you then?

By the way your pictures of you throwing the jav highlight a number of school boy errors. Perhaps this is why it does not go very far :lol:

Foots at three oclock and you are draggin it instead of working your hip.

The tails touching the floor...probably because your wrist is cocked, which give an angle on the javelin of about 80 degrees :oops:

look at your run off, you are leaning in to the javelin resembling a banana.

That will do for now and I hope it helps you throw over 50m, this is not a good role model for youngsters :?

Must say though the photographic sequences are quite good :wink:
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Postby sleady » Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:33 pm

michaelw wrote:The BBC have closed their forums for all sports and opened a new forum or site which seems to mix all sports together. James Montgomery did not post on the message boards for boxing, tennis, cycling, rowing etc etc which are also being closed.


....But according to 'longthrow' the BBC have taken the decision to close the message boards down because someone at UKA got upset by a few pointless snipes by a bunch of anonymous nobodies! Dillusions of grandeur me thinks!

To your credit Michael, at least your prepared to stand up in the open!
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Postby Javelin Sam » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:55 pm

jennifer eccles wrote:Sam James has never upset me on any of my posts ...is it you then?

By the way your pictures of you throwing the jav highlight a number of school boy errors. Perhaps this is why it does not go very far :lol:

Foots at three oclock and you are draggin it instead of working your hip.

The tails touching the floor...probably because your wrist is cocked, which give an angle on the javelin of about 80 degrees :oops:

look at your run off, you are leaning in to the javelin resembling a banana.

That will do for now and I hope it helps you throw over 50m, this is not a good role model for youngsters :?

Must say though the photographic sequences are quite good :wink:


not bad analysis... good job i already throw over 50m then isn't it...in fact an average of 54m this year.

as for not being a good role model... total group increase of 80m this year from 9 athletes says it must be....
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Postby Jobo » Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:59 pm

Work on what Jennifer has posted and maybe you might get 60m

The group could have thrown 180m extra this season

or maybe your just the worst technical thrower in the group.

Good throwers are not automatically the best coaches (selfish)

therefore as a bad thrower you must be a good coach... :lol:
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Postby Power-of-ten-man » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:06 pm

Now that is an interesting way of looking at it Job :lol: very good :D

come on sam you can do better than that?
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Postby Javelin Sam » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:53 am

Loving the feedback....

It is apparent that yes i am a better coach than i am a thrower but that's down to me never having a coach that has stuck around for me as long as i have for my group.. a coach that gives up all their time to ensure that I can be the best i possibly can be a coach that spends al their spare cash on making sure i'm entered in the right events and that i have the best equipment available. I have, in part, had to coach my self for many years. I have had coaches along the way, don't get me wrong but none that have been as enthusiastic as i have with my group.

come and watch me throw and you will see (if you already haven't) that i am throwing well below my current capability.. this year i should have thrown over 60m but for one or two errors in technique that cause me to come to an almost complete stop before throwing (yes i am basically throwing 55m from a standing position..)


extra feedback is always welcome!
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Postby Power-of-ten-man » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:28 pm

I once overheard someone ask a coach,"what makes a good coach" his reply, was someone who will be there wind or rain or snow 2/3 times a week without fail, so I guess you must fit in this gatorgory sam :D


I have been told that landing with the foot to three oclock causess a stopping action, and a weak effort with the pre throwing stride will add to the problem..last three Taa Ta Ta :wink: onwards and upwards Sam.

Keep up the good work :)
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Postby Javelin Sam » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:21 am

hmm... now then.. where have i met you before "jennifer"
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Postby slinger » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:16 pm

:D hehehehehehehe............
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Postby Javelin Sam » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:46 am

Mr Slinger your heheheh'ing is concerning me... are you leading a double life? or do you know who JE is...

Jennifer Eccles is definately in a song by the Hollies.. and is definately the Captain of StEdmunds College women's Basketball team.. she was also a P0rn actress...

sooo hmmm
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Postby slinger » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:24 pm

no idea mate, my name on every forum i'm a member of is slinger and you know me well! i wouldn't try to give you advice unless you asked for it.

i just thought it was funny that someone i'd never heard of was giving you javelin tips!!! :D as you know i, like you do know most people in the javelin fraternity and JE isn't a name i'd associate with javelin throwing.......
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Postby Javelin Sam » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:41 am

it would be good to see who this "jennifer" is... it's always better to be open and honnest than hide behind a randomly selected screen name.
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Postby Oleg » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:37 am

Perhaps JE stands for James Everard?
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Postby slinger » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:20 pm

:shock: whooooooooooo?
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Postby Javelin Sam » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:23 pm

Oleg wrote:Perhaps JE stands for James Everard?


no i asked him and although he is a cripple at the moment with loads of time on his hands i am sure it is not him... :wink:
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Postby bevone » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:53 pm

I thought the technical appraisal was a little bit harsh on young Sam and the subsequent assassination of his coaching ability. I assume it is done in jest but as the saying goes, 'many a true things are said in jest!'

The angle of where the camera comes from is not the best either and the three o'clock thing! ha ha. Stills like this are difficult to analyse so I suggest this person knows you and is having a dig Sam.

The fact is - you go out on club nights and provide a service free of charge to youngsters and not so young so are by defintition the backbone of the club system. The fact that your athletes have done well at English schools level is a credit to you and demonstrates that you are on the right track.

Maybe the next step is some sort of mentoring which may come when someone from UKA decides to take an interest in Bonne and assigns him one of their coaches!

You don't have to be a great thrower to be a great coach but being proficient and knowing about the event in detail does help. You do need some practical experience of the throws TBH to understand the events and also what works and possible risks.

Good sequence though although there are some glaring technical errors - but we've talked about this before at Barking as I've seen you in the flesh and got you on video! You just need to maintain your speed from two strides out mate, thus, you won't be doing standing throws! U R unique as i can't remember seeing anyone braking on their left prior to the right foot plant - usually people are too heavy on their right and brake as opposed to carrying your speed/momentum onto your left then braking on it - and riding over it as opposed to collapsing into the ground and off to the left!

In my humble opinion!

JE mentioned dragging the right foot - all top throwers drag the right foot on delivery to maintain contact over a long range of movement when you achieve penetration through the throw. If you simply turn the left right foot and don't drag, you are either doing a standing throw, have no momentum or are a fixed feet short ranged thrower. Check out Backley dragging hit foot as he maintains contact with the ground and the spear. I think you'll also find that his hip displacement is rising and going up and through the throw. Now that is what we call a good range of movement! Look at the backgrond and see how much space he eats up.

http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/javelin/photo.htm

Every jav thrower should have this pinned to the inside of their forehead!

He is proabbly the best technical thrower of all time - unless omeone can show a sequence of something better. adn mroe aesthetic. And you have to remember that Steve was nowhere near as good athletically as most of his rivals (including probably all of his domestic ones!)
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Postby Power-of-ten-man » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:57 pm

As en exporn star and junior javelin thrower, I can only say that Backley seems to open up far to early and his use of the right foot slow and only partial in its application, I would not advise anyone to attempt his unique "style"

Keeping the right foot down "dragging" assists in reducing rotation as well, but it must lift at the correct time.


Maybe if he corrected these things in a manner like my hero Jan :oops:
he would have thrown 100m :wink:
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Postby bevone » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:44 pm

JE

With respect, I don't know what your talking about. Jan generates alot of release speed because he has a cannon arm and does some vary basic things right. He can be very inconsistent as he has alignment problems. Having thrown with him and against him numeours times, (as wel as Steve over the years) I can assure you that it takes a lot for a man of his size and his explosive ability to throw 98m.

There are several different ways of throwing the jav and if you watch this, you will see Jan dragging his right after turnng it. Rotation - err what?

http://www.slujavelin.com/zelezny.jpg

Check this out and what do you think his right ankle is doing from frame 30 - 32? Dragging perhaps. If you are suggesting that Backley is collapsing his lower right side and dragging his hip then you really don't know the event my friend!

You could also say he puts his foot in the bucket, too far left (notice he throws it out to the right, hence creating a horendous resultant force off line with the javelin and he collapses his left side and falls off the the left. If he was throwing 70m people would be criticising him, but he has got an incredible gift in his right arm. I challenge anyone else to throw like that or like Petra Felka who are just awsome specimens rather than technical models -although Jan does some great timing things in his throw.

Many of the above are not what would be decribed as best practice, as many probably wouldn't teach people to run like Michael Johnson style but it works for him. I know pretty good technical models who lack the athletic ability to match hence don't throw very far.
When one foot leaves contact with the ground, you loose your power position i.e throwing off one foot is biomechanically ineffective thats why you drag.

Not trying to have a go at you pal - but I'm just a bit suprised about your comments. The best technicians aren't necessarily the best throwers is my point.
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Postby slinger » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:34 pm

backley might have thrown further than jan if he was as gifted physically, steve certainly wasn't the athlete jan was......

bevone, you got me in hysterics then! i was just about to look into my library of stills and vids for that very sequence of jan to raise the point you were making!!! :D - there's some other great vids on there that slu college site isn't there 8)

i would say backley's 89.58m WR throw form stockholm is one of his best and JE it certainly is a unique style that he has, but he does all the "basics" what i would call right, technical aspects that i would teach day in day out.

a great technical model.
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Postby Power-of-ten-man » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:44 pm

Dead right Mr slinger, An excellent basic model can achieve enourmous results this is why it must always be taught and deviated from as little as is Humanly possible 8)

Bevone nothing you say could upset me, being the lovely person you are :D


You may be able to help me here, if the left leg goes into the bucket can this be due to opening up early as the right hip is firing, and if the right foot was picked up early would the rotational forces caused by the right hip tend to push the body around the left leg instead of over it?
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Postby Glen » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:51 pm

How did we get from 5 Live forum closing to Steve Backley with his foot in a bucket in so few steps?
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Postby slinger » Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:20 pm

Glen wrote:How did we get from 5 Live forum closing to Steve Backley with his foot in a bucket in so few steps?


........that's just the way conversations go, be a bit boring if we talked about the same things all the time.
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Postby Glen » Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:27 pm

Good though. As a club mate of Steves I tried to sit behind him at every chance and saw his big throw at CP and several others. I always thought his throwing was a bit big and ugly compared to the technique of my Finnish frends. But there was no arguing about the effectiveness of that arm of his. Awesome.
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Postby bevone » Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:47 pm

Hi Glen JE Phil,

Look at the Backley photo sequence and tell me that's ugly !!!! I've got STeve's 91.48 from North Shore in NZ on video somewhere and that was preety awesome. Stve was working on a parrallel carry in the initial part of his withdrawal atteh tim and it looks like he throws very flat. However, Bio mech data I have of him when we threw at the 1992 Olympic trails had him releasing at 2.06m hieght, 30.3 m/s adn 41 degree release angle and o angle of attack = 88 + metres. Hilly was very similar in all angles but threw at 28.9m/s and threw 85m.

Many people think that Steve was technically best around the early 90's but then started changing stuff for the sake of it. Not sure if it is true but it is a widely held opinion. I suppose his PB may indicate this.
Bucket and left foot and rotation is a thesis in itslef - however, if you plant your foot out to the left and throw tothe right, you are not generally being efficient. Bottom line is that when I did my undergrad thesis on bio mech of jav and differences with the old and new type (similar to the one Mick Hill did at Carnegie) there are certain parameters that affect how far the jav goes. The Yuri Terauds stuff performerd onTOm PEtranoff was mostly fudges as the jav gun they used was faulty or so TP calimed. ie. he extrapolated many of his results back in the late 80's. Ther is mroe recent research since then.

Peace!
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Postby Power-of-ten-man » Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:52 am

Hi You all :D

Goodness gracious bevone, you sound just like a real expert, why haven't UKA employed you, we are in desperate need for someone who knows what he is on about .

Apparantly Mick Hill after months ofhigh level Study came to the conclusion, that you run like hell and T**T it :lol:


And as for Terauds experiments, they fired the gun either off cliffs with the javelin ending up in the sea, or into hillsides, and invariable the javelin never landed on terra firma so they could be measured. :lol:

I cannot reveal my level of study as there is insufficient data space on this forum. :wink:
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Postby Power-of-ten-man » Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:00 am

jennifer eccles wrote:Hi You all :D

Goodness gracious bevone, you sound just like a "real" expert, why haven't UKA employed you, we are in desperate need for someone who knows what he is on about .

Apparantly Mick Hill after months of high level Study came to the conclusion, that you have to run like hell and then T**T it :lol:


And as for Terauds experiments, they fired the gun either off cliffs with the javelin ending up in the sea, or into hillsides, and invariable the javelin never landed on terra firma so they could be measured. :lol:

I cannot reveal my level of study as there is insufficient data space on this forum. :wink:
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