Will CVC really go now?...

[ldnbloke]

And collect a hefty paycheque elsewhere .

[MysteryBrick]

I've never got caught up in, or enjoyed, or even understood, the constant CVC-bashing prevalent on this forum.

However, whoever f***ed up the men's 4x400m needs to go, now.

I love the 4x400m, it's my favourite event to watch and take part in, and I always look forward to it at the end of every major championship (where it should be, as the last event, but that's another story...) as I know it promises the most drama and intrigue, and that GB will always mix it up with the best in the world. To see such a lack of awareness, hubris even, in the selection and team strategy has made me more angry than I can put into words.

[jjimbojames]

I have a feeling CvC's contract is up anyway, and that line was put in expecting that we would get more than the 8, and then he could have a better bargaining position. Now that we haven't, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go

[athlete101]

I read an article where CVC was talking about TEAM GB's medal predictions. He was qutoed as saying, even if GB won 8 medals and none of them Gold then he would leave. (will have to try and find this article). However, I must admit he has done a far better job than Dave Collins though.

[hank]

I have heard some Games Makers have volunteered to clear his desk and drive him to the airport.

[fangio]

Disappointing medal haul, so probably will go even if we end on 4 Gold 1 Silver 2 Bronze. He is a tough critic, so i imagine he will fall on his sword. Relays have let him down massively tonight, but still feels strange to say he will go when we have had National records this year in men's discus, Pole Vault, Long Jump, and womens Walk, Hammer, Javelin, 110mh, Pole Vault, Heptathlon. With the ages of some invovled I don't fear for the future of athletics, but in the end UK Sport are about World medals, and more specifically the Olympics.

[hank]

Always wise to have an idea of who will take over when you decide to move someone on. No one instantly springs to mind.

He is a bit of a bully, so I wont be sad to see him go. Mo and Ennis are nothing directly to do with hi anyway.

[MysteryBrick]

Can we be really nice to British Cycling and have Dave Brailsford? Even if he knows nothing about athletics, he'd probably be brilliant.

[hank]

That is what I was thinking. A proper shake up, and see if it works.

[Geoff]

I suspect most if not all the overseas coaches including CVC will go elsewhere. I think he genuinely thought we would get 8 and must be in some shock, especially after Super Saturday, that the athletes have not delivered. He possibly, though, had already decided to move on even if the target was reached.

As we have discussed over and over again there are more fundamental problems with our sport and CVC made it clear when he was appointed that he had only a specific role at the elite end. There has to be radical changes from the bottom up and we must avoid an us and them situation. Some searching questions such as what is the role of our clubs? Should we have athlete transfers? Should we professionalise coaching and should we have athlete/coach contracts? Many difficult areas the sport should address. I genuinely believe we have the ability to develop high class junior athletes in all events at local and sub-regional level but the present structure is not best suited to deliver that. Do you then centralise? Whatever we do it has to be joined up and fair.

Going back to CVC's specific role he must accept responsibiliy for a number of poor results, not just here but in the lead up to the Games. He must accept responsibility for a number of poor selections. There will, no doubt, be a debate about whether 5, 6 or 7 medals including 3 or 4 gold is better than 8 with one gold.

I have always maintained there are a number of cracks that appeared to have been papered over but now we see a whole range of structural problems. They are not all of CVC's making by any means so perhaps we should be asking questions about others, not just within UKA, but also outside in the home nations and sports councils.

I have to mention Dan Pfaff, someone who I was told is more important than CVC, who has done a good job with Greg rutherford, Steve Lewis, Goldie until her injury and a few others. The athletes all speak very highly of him but once again if he was retained would more athletes move to him and, if so, we still have the conflict created through enforced transfers. There is a rumour he may be going to Japan.

At least we've done better than last time under Dave Collins.

[trevorp]

He is a bit of a bully, so I wont be sad to see him go.

That's what most of the swimmers said about Bill Sweetenham, but he would probably be welcomed back with open arms after the disappointing results here.

[mump boy]

Head Coach is an impossible job and over all CVC has left us in a MUCH better place than we were 4 years ago but his people skills leave a lot to be desired and there are many prominent members of the team who don't even speak to him anymore. A lot of the national coached only do so through gritted teeth. His management style is no longer tenable.

I have no idea what goes on with out relay teams but there are 2/3 medal shots there and i'm still convinced our w4x1 would be at least finalists with a bit of attention. For some bizarre reason we seem happy to throw these medals away left right and centre

[hank]

He is a bit of a bully, so I wont be sad to see him go.

That's what most of the swimmers said about Bill Sweetenham, but he would probably be welcomed back with open arms after the disappointing results here.

The cycling fella does not seem to have a bad press, nor the rowing coach.

[Geoff]

Head Coach is an impossible job and over all CVC has left us in a MUCH better place than we were 4 years ago but his people skills leave a lot to be desired and there are many prominent members of the team who don't even speak to him anymore. A lot of the national coached only do so through gritted teeth. His management style is no longer tenable.

I have no idea what goes on with out relay teams but there are 2/3 medal shots there and i'm still convinced our w4x1 would be at least finalists with a bit of attention. For some bizarre reason we seem happy to throw these medals away left right and centre

I wonder if Aston Moore communicates properly with CVC?

[jjimbojames]

Head Coach is an impossible job and over all CVC has left us in a MUCH better place than we were 4 years ago but his people skills leave a lot to be desired and there are many prominent members of the team who don't even speak to him anymore. A lot of the national coached only do so through gritted teeth. His management style is no longer tenable.

I have no idea what goes on with out relay teams but there are 2/3 medal shots there and i'm still convinced our w4x1 would be at least finalists with a bit of attention. For some bizarre reason we seem happy to throw these medals away left right and centre

I wonder if Aston Moore communicates properly with CVC?

Given that PI said he'd been fully aware of his movements, and CvC said PI hadn't spoken to his coach, someone isn't in the loop...

[John Cogger]

The cycling fella does not seem to have a bad press, nor the rowing coach.

How many cyclists operate outside of the central coaching system? How many rowers? How many are coached from club to internationals by the same coach? How many are taken from their club to a central singular training camp?

[jjimbojames]

The cycling fella does not seem to have a bad press, nor the rowing coach.

How many cyclists operate outside of the central coaching system? How many rowers? How many are coached from club to internationals by the same coach? How many are taken from their club to a central singular training camp?

^^This. If people think UKA are after centralisation now, they would HATE what both these sports do. Will be interesting if Cycling splits and allows some people to train at the London velodrome, or whether they keep everyone together

One thing I would credit cycling for - Laura Trott got into cycling when the governing body went to her school and asked kids if they wanted to try out and see if they were any good, rowing has their talent ID pathway. A few coaches could do with doing that for Athletics too - most kids don't know how good they could be until someone decent spots them

[mump boy]

This is why it makes no sense for the same people who complain about the centralisation of UKA at the same time complaining that we're not as successful as cycling !!

[hank]

The cycling fella does not seem to have a bad press, nor the rowing coach.

I was talking about the harmony of the team, and that you don't have to e a bully to get results.

I think that rowing does have a club system that feeds natioanl squads. Sports like cricket and rugby do also, so maybe there is something they are doing that we could look at.

[Geoff]

This is why it makes no sense for the same people who complain about the centralisation of UKA at the same time complaining that we're not as successful as cycling !!

I have said before I am not totally against centralisation but the sport can only benefit if there is a harmonious and effective structure to feed into it and all those contributing to the long term development of our sport are treated fairly. The alternative is a structure that adequately supports, coordinates and educates no matter where they are located but, of course, there are problems with this structure as well.

Also it doesn't suit every athlete to move to a centralised location and I know a few that didn't like the Luffbra bubble.

Going back to cycling how will their strcture change now there are velodromes not just in Manchester but also in London, Newport and Glasgow?

[bevone]

Blaming CVC for a lack of medals is an unfair protocol to judge his success. I think the fact that we have so many who have not met their best and the fact that we had up to 18 serious medal shots is a credit to the state the sport is in. But he took over from a Collins system that was working (5 medals with the 4x400m awarded later) and 18 finalists and we are up to 17 now with a couple days left (Mo, 4 x 400 relay women) and there were 6 x 4th an 5th so near misses. Also we have he best U20 and U23 results and indoor results and these have continued to a point (and Ennis and a few others were inured in 2008).

I think someone should look at what he has done in 4 years and see if it has been to the detriment of the advance of the sport. Baton changing isnt his fault - but who did he employ to make dropping it a habit now!

[moshimoshi]

...Going back to cycling how will their strcture change now there are velodromes not just in Manchester but also in London, Newport and Glasgow?

I'm guessing they might use the new centres for their junior/school age programmes with the senior squad still in Manchester.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/gbcycl ... Programmes

[ldnbloke]

Some sort of centralised approach is fine but not a stringent one . We can have nationally approved/ supported groups ( Arnold, Pfaf, Cowan and a few more) but if an athlete wants to train with their coach in let's say Coventry then that athlete mustn't be threatened with loss of funding and spiteful attitude in selection processes. This is not the GDR after all, though their way of working obviously produced results for rowing( Juergen Grobler and his internal selection camps etc...) and cycling but those sports are not as diverse as athletics.

[mump boy]

Some sort of centralised approach is fine but not a stringent one . We can have nationally approved/ supported groups ( Arnold, Pfaf, Cowan and a few more) but if an athlete wants to train with their coach in let's say Coventry then that athlete mustn't be threatened with loss of funding and spiteful attitude in selection processes. This is not the GDR after all

As long as they are getting results.

[alfie7]

Haven't a clue what he'll do , but I don't think you can say he's been all bad...

Didn't Seb Coe say something five years ago about aiming for British finalists in 50% of events ? And got a bit of derision from some on here I think

Well they have just about managed that , even if we'd have liked a few more on the podium. And as Bev points out , a lot of national records this year...plus a lot of younger athletes shining.

Maybe time for a new man at the top , but perhaps things just need tweaking rather than root and branch change ?

[hank]

We always have great U20s coming through. We also always see massive numbers of these give up the sport post university.

We need a system that addresses this also. I would be interested to learn more about cyclings plan, regarding how they intend to use the new velodromes. You could have one center to top end performers, and use the others for the neglected teir below.

[Geoff]

You can't blame CVC for everything that goes wrong and indeed we have made progress over the past couple of years. The issue is about the structure of the whole sport which, obviously, is a huge challenge.

Just one example to highlight a point. Katarina Johnson-Thompson is based in Liverpool and coached by Mike Holmes. She is a world youth champion and world junior champion, performed very well in London and is one of our rising stars. In a centralised system would she be forced to move to another centre and work with a different coach? If that happens what about her coach in Liverpool - does he just accept it, lose UKA support and start working with another teenager on a voluntary basis? Or does he retire?

I think from the example above you should all realise we have a problem with our structure from the bottom upwards if a centralised system is imposed. However, whichever system we have will lead to problems unless changes are made at all levels so UKA cannot just tweak the elite level.

PS I used KJT to highlight a point and am not inferring there will be change. They do collaborate with others within UKA which is how it should be.

[sidelined]

On the question of man-management skills at UKA, here's a bizarre tweet from Andy Vernon:

Andy Vernon ‏@AndyVernonGB
Just had a drunk Ian Stewart (head of UKA endurance) say 'flip you' 3 times to me outside the olympic park @uk_sport @UKA_athletics @TeamGB
Retweeted by Tom Farrell

The word in question was not 'flip' - that's what this board altered it to.

I don't think anybody wants to impose a completely centralised system. At the moment lottery-funded athletes are training in Dundee, Newcastle, Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Liverpool, Bath, Oregon, Twickenham - that's off the top of my head - as well as Lee Valley and Loughborough. It would be insanity to centralise further.

I think CVC will hand in his resignation - but will it be accepted? How about Kelly Holmes for head coach? She's tough, inspiration and well organised. But it would never happen because I don't think she's got formal coaching qualifications.

[bevone]

CVC replacement - JOhn Trower, Jess's coach TOny Minecello, Crammie - The first two have experiennce coaching juniors to senior in clubs as well. We do not need foreigners who do not have the passion or understanding of what UK athletics is or stands for.

[javman]

Not quite sure on any of those Bev, for varying reasons, but I wouldn't rate any of them as exceptional leaders. That is what is required to replace CVC. As for a candidate from the UK, no idea who could take on the role. However, I feel that you need someone who spend time in the role, one olympic cycle doesnt cut it. I think Brailsford has been in his post since 2000!