Cycling makes UKA look like clowns

[javman]

Hmm not a great comparison! The sports are intrinsically different, although I do like cycling's scientific approach to everything.

However with no throws coordinator, 2 employed throws coaches, a head of coaching who doesn't allow for certainly one of those coaches to express any development plans, the system isn't great.

Come the revolution in October!

[bevone]

agree with javman - cant compare sports like this. The throws do not have a co-ordinator. England seem to follow suit with only a couple of part time coaches who most wouldnt want any advice from. The throws is set up for them to look after themselves and do well inspite of any system. If okoye wins a medal at 2012 it will be because of his school and coach and little of anything to do with uka who have failed to fund him properly according to the transworld sport interview on him because he was not with a uka approved coach. All that money and resources and they are looking for reasons not to fund and not the other way around.

There are far more things that could be said but will save that for another day! The lack of funding and in fighting within the coaching systemis forcing good people from the sport for good - or until they get rid of some of the drift wood. I wonder why the head of uk sport resigned last month - maybe he knows something that we all know!

[djlovesyou]

What would happen if UKA said: "Right, all discus throwers are going to train together with expert coach X that we've appointed"?

Would you be happy with that? What could UKA do that would make you happy about progressing the throws in this country? (semantics such as throwing uphill in Birmingham aside, that's just petty whining.)

Athletics just can't be compared with cycling, because the whole cycling team can essentially train together. Although the disciplines are different, a lot of it is essentially the same. (perhaps with a distinction between sprint and endurance on the track.)

[Damocles]

Athletics just can't be compared with cycling, because the whole cycling team can essentially train together. Although the disciplines are different, a lot of it is essentially the same. (perhaps with a distinction between sprint and endurance on the track.)

Cycling involves cycling, the events are just cycling..... pedal,pedal, pedal

No comparison between the totally disimilar disciplines of out events... Running, hurdling, jumping up, jumping long, vaulting, walking, throwing 4 different implements and then relays and multi-events. I see very little the same, so cycling is so much easier to cater for? I doubt if even 40% of the tracks in the UK allow Hammer training (petty whining obviously), so how can the event prosper?

Uphill throwing at the stadium for the Trials.... that's not petty whining, that is a fact that shames our sport and nothing has been dome about, despite years of complaints.

I doubt it would be called petty whining if the velodromes of manchester and London had warped timbers or an uphill bit at the finish?

[Damocles]

agree with javman - cant compare sports like this. The throws do not have a co-ordinator. England seem to follow suit with only a couple of part time coaches who most wouldnt want any advice from.

I've just checked the England website. They have no coaches, coaching the throws. Can you name them as you seem to have inside information?

[mump boy]

Athletics just can't be compared with cycling, because the whole cycling team can essentially train together. Although the disciplines are different, a lot of it is essentially the same. (perhaps with a distinction between sprint and endurance on the track.)

Cycling involves cycling, the events are just cycling..... pedal,pedal, pedal

No comparison between the totally disimilar disciplines of out events... Running, hurdling, jumping up, jumping long, vaulting, walking, throwing 4 different implements and then relays and multi-events. I see very little the same, so cycling is so much easier to cater for? I doubt if even 40% of the tracks in the UK allow Hammer training (petty whining obviously), so how can the event prosper?

Uphill throwing at the stadium for the Trials.... that's not petty whining, that is a fact that shames our sport and nothing has been dome about, despite years of complaints.

I doubt it would be called petty whining if the velodromes of manchester and London had warped timbers or an uphill bit at the finish?

It also helps when only about 10 countries take part and you need astronomically priced facilities and equipment.

[taffy]

Meh my reply failed to post. Anyway, way more than 10 countries participate and at least 16 have realsitic chances of a medal in track cycling, so far higher than other sports.

The Uk track cycling model has been copied by many others and not just in cycling. They used their funding wisely. If only Athletics had done the same @ wisely.

[bevone]

damocles

http://www.englandathletics.org/page.as ... ch+Mentors

No inside information required - here is the EAAA website - note jav and hammer coach not shot or disc or head throws coach but requires 2 PV coaches.

http://daegu2011.iaaf.org/ResultsMedalTable.aspx

note 33 nations won medals at the last world champs from a host of obscure countries as wellm-mi dare say the rowing, swimming or cycling tables will resemble anything like this. Athletics is the only true world sport in the OGs as most of the technical sports are dominated by first world countries who have the facilites for them where somehwer like kenya wins all its medal in one event long distance running and jamaica - sprinting!

Athletics is like 12 or thirteen different sports in one with the main talent based all over the country which is why a 6 or 7 centred model has been shown to be best as it allows for several centres of excellence and opportunities for athletes to work with thier own local coach or chose from an option of coaches. This approach has been reported on and demonstrated in academic papers and this model was working and is what the current administration inheritted and then they changed it. The two centre model has ironically cost far more than the extended model that was in place and I guess we will reap the rewards in London and then decide what was cost effective.

[Laps]

I don't know whether Cycling makes UKA look like clowns, but I do think that many sports including Athletics have lessons they can learn from Cycling, including how to treat people, how to spend your energies positively, and how to use all scientific means at your disposal.

As for the idea that Cycling is a small contained sport where different circumstances apply I think you are probably wrong there, even apart from apparently forgetting about Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and BMX. At present the Tour of Italy is in full flow and I am counting riders from 37 nations still involved, just a small part of one branch of the elite professional sport.

Perhaps Athletics should take its blinkers off, look around and stop wasting time on pathetically parochial arguments like that one with WADA.

[bevone]

The one with WADA was the Olympic association - on behalf of many sports including cycling. Cyclngs lapse attitude to drug taking is not an example to anyone either.

[javman]

I don't know whether Cycling makes UKA look like clowns, but I do think that many sports including Athletics have lessons they can learn from Cycling, including how to treat people, how to spend your energies positively, and how to use all scientific means at your disposal.

Completely agree Laps. The professionalism that I have seen in cycling is first rate. You could argue that it is easier for cycling due to their limited range of events and hence elite cyclists. However, their organisational structure, management of performers and attention to detail leave a lot of other sports in their wake. Perhaps only really rivalled by rowing and perhaps sailing.

How athletics will progress post Olympics is anyone's guess. The real shame is that it does require some substantial nvestment due to the spread of events that Bevone highlighted, and I have a sneaky suspicion that sports funding from the Govt may well be slashed post Olympics. It will be interesting to see what coaches remain when the focus switches to Brazil.

[Laps]

The one with WADA was the Olympic association - on behalf of many sports including cycling. Cyclngs lapse attitude to drug taking is not an example to anyone either.

Cycling used to suffer from institutionalised performance enhancing drug abuse. It seems to me that they have done more than any other sport to try to put their house in order. They needed to. It was very deep rooted and they continue to catch some cheats and deal with some countries who are not as helpful as they should be. You call that a lax (lapse?) attitude. I call it meeting the challenge head on and dealing with it.

[javman]

The one with WADA was the Olympic association - on behalf of many sports including cycling. Cyclngs lapse attitude to drug taking is not an example to anyone either.

Cycling used to suffer from institutionalised performance enhancing drug abuse. It seems to me that they have done more than any other sport to try to put their house in order. They needed to. It was very deep rooted and they continue to catch some cheats and deal with some countries who are not as helpful as they should be. You call that a lax (lapse?) attitude. I call it meeting the challenge head on and dealing with it.

Laps, I think that Cycling still does suffer from PED abuse, but I feel that it is rather more in the professional road area rather than in the velodrome. Agreed that professional road cycling has taken some massive strides to sort itself out though.

As for Team GB cycling, I believe that it is a model for other sports to review and cherry pick the best bits and mould them into the respective sport.

[djlovesyou]

I do appreciate that the uphill issue is a problem and something that should be fixed. I agree with you there.

My point was that it's not an issue that can be used to explain the standard of British throwing. I can't accept that the standard would be any higher if it was flat.

As for cycling having a lax attitude toward doping, that's absolute nonsense. When the scandals started coming out in the 90s they could have gone one of two ways - stop catching people and pretend everything is ok (the tennis model) or actually try to do something about it. They went with the latter and have since become a bit of a pariah sport du to the strict anti-doping regime and the subsequent often high profile riders banned. They took a big PR hit and made the sport look rather bad. (particularly among fans of other sports who have limited knowledge of what's happening in cycling).

It's like somebody once said, is a city with a full prison an indication that the city is full of crime or that the city has a strong police force? I think the lack of positive tests in some sports (tennis, athletics for example) is often more worrying than if they were catching a lot of people.

[trickstat]

I agree that the uphill infield is something that really should have been fixed but realistically what can UKA be expected to do? They don't own the venue and, in every other way, Alexander Stadium is the best place to hold the trials.

[Geoff]

Forgive my ignorance, I've never been to the Alexandra Stadium. If the infield is uphill, why isn't the track slightly sloped as well? I don't see how that could work?

The infield is raised to allow for improved drainage, Circles are at track height within the 'D's' at each end hence the grass landing areas are higher. It's estimated it could reduce distances in the long throws by as much a a couple of metres. Shot putters suffer more, proportionately, because the rise is steepest in the first 10m or so.

I do, however, think that this is not directly related to cycling and their attention to detail. I could bore everyone with the differences between cycling and athletics and why we can't copy cycling exactly. I do think we have a lot of science and support in our sport but our biggest issue is lack of an appropriate structure.

[trickstat]

I agree that the uphill infield is something that really should have been fixed but realistically what can UKA be expected to do? They don't own the venue and, in every other way, Alexander Stadium is the best place to hold the trials.

How about raising the circles to compensate for the uphill bit.They have the time.

Assuming there are no other competitions or throwers that want to train there in the next 5 and a half weeks that is!

UKA do not own the stadium!!!!!

[bevone]

The inside field in the stadium has always been slightly raised and I am others did their pb's there so this 2m suggesiton is an exageration. I visit the track a couple of times a week and it is similar to how it was before. now the old circles out the back were uphill and if you threw it down the left you literally could throw half way up the hill. Lets not over egg the elevated field aspect at Alexander stadium it is not that bad and dare i say a convenient excuse. The fact is and looking in your athletics stats books we cannot pontificate about the good old days about our heavy throws. Our best hammer throwers threw 77 n the 70/80'd and that wasnt good enough, geoff capes won a medal in shot in the 70's/80m and we have no medals in the discus (maybe Vinessa Head or Meg Richie who threw 67m back in the 70/80s). Our womens shot has been poor on the world stage since judy oaks retired where Denise Lewis - heptathlete threw 16.40 odd and still remains one of our best shot putters of recent years!

This may be down to the fact that some people still harp on about drugs in the heavy throws and becuase athletics has been stringent we cannot get away with it like other countries do. You could also claim that after many years of producing nothing of note that we did not have the coaches for these events. The mens and womens javlein is the complete opposite and wickipedia identifies UK as one of the top 3 javelin throwing nations of recent times - where you dont need drugs and where we have some world class coaches.

We have had an upsurge in discus men recently which again may be down to the fact that they realised you dont need drugs to throw 60m. Some of the guys who threw 65m were impressive athletes in one way or another, ie being excessively strong in one area or another and maybe why we thought 60m and 65m was superhuman. I can tell you one thing I observed, I trained with Glen Smith for the year that he threw 65m in the discus and this guy was an incredible athlete jumping 11.50 plus for 3 bunny jumps, 3.60ish standing long jump clean 190kg and he threw 65m. I coached Brett Morse who threw further than Glen (a lot further if he converted some of his fouls in the US last year) and Brett was nowhere near the physical specimen Glen proving you dont need to be stupidly strong which I think has helped the event go forward as the rest now believe.

Ironically, BobWeir was incredibly strong and the others around 65m were much the same. I can also report that abdul and Lawrence from what I am told are pretty strong in the weights room and perris wilkins was a power lifting champion posting silly numbers in his power lifts so being strong naturally does help!

[BigGut]

Its funny. When UKA use science to assess people on performance funnels and not just dish out cash based on seasons bests people bitch about that. When they propose a two centre model people moan, even though that is the sam as cycling where they hav manchester for track and their academy team based in italy. Its also the case that cycling can apply science to assess relative performance because track cycling takes place in a controlled environment. They sure as hell dont use that for selecting the road team.rgy

I trust that th distance events will include a number of foreign athletes to provide fast races to give the distance guys a chance to get their qualifiers at th trials an that the top guys wont hav to run heats which deplete their energy. Of course not. Its the trials. Its about finishing top two not about achieving the tie.

[TheRealSub10]

While I agree it should have been sorted I spoke to someone at the council and apparently the infield was supposed to be fixed when the track was relayed. However, this being Britain it rained and so the resurfacing was pushed back not leaving enough time to fix the infield before it had to be completed (I assume this is because they couldn't drive across the track with all the heavy machinery). Apparently they have levelled one area though not being familiar with the stadium i'm not sure what that is. Anyway, basically it's the councils fault and with only a few weeks until the US team arrives to prepare for the Olympics it cannot be done now. These seem to be the facts of the matter as far as I can tell.

[bevone]

furlong,

I am not surveyor of have the equipment, nor the desire or time to measure the exact benefits to determine something that may make cm difference from 50 - 80m. Unlike you I can only assume - i have trained at the stadium regularly since 1980's and I repeat that I did several PBs there and my current PB as have many others. It is only one throwing venue so I am not sure why you are implying that this is disabling the throwing events. And edcuated guess will suffice in this case and if anyone does go out and measure it accurately then we will all be happy. The only one that matters this year is the Olympic stadium anyway.

I dont know if you are a coach or have anything to do with coaching at the top level but many athletes do utilise sports science support and some coaches like myself who have backgrounds in sports science support use this knowledge in preparing the athlete and testing throughout the year. Lottery funded athletes have to present their yearly programme plan including their competition plan and justify how the training matches the competition goals. It is an extremely in depth document and as much as it was a pain to do - and then present it to someone nominated in UKA - it was an exercise that at least demonstrated that as a coach you had thought things through. coaching at the elite level is not about what shall we do today, things that you do today in terms of volume and intensity will heavily effect what happens in 6 weeks time. Fortunately I have practical experience of this and not a theoretical knowledge which i am affraid this applies to only a few coaches per event. Not that I am trying to denegrate other coaches but you have to ask questions if your athletes are pbing as teens and then not as adults - ie nature thas got them there - what have you done to nuture them since. If you visit other websites such as the US track adn field news, they regualrly have a dig a UK sprints coaches inabilty to develop spritners for more than a year or two and that is why the go to the US and Jamiaca for help or employ foreign coaches. I am not saying this is correct but it is a perception that many of them post about.

Leaning form cycling, well lets look inward first. East africans dominate the distances - what do they do that is different - life style! the US dominate the medals table - what do they do (US collegiate system, organsied structure in schools adn coaches allloacated from early ages). The USSR and GDR were dominant - they ahd sports schools - and institutionalised drug taking as stasi files have later reported on. Otherwise medals are well spread out among 35 countries with most getting 1 to 3 medals maximum. Again I challenge any other sport to have such a diverse range.

[BigGut]

I am on topic. I am pointing out that the trials are about finishing position and to prove this I am highlighting that the format of the competition is entirely unsuitable for chasing qualifying standards in other disciplines as well. If the aim of the trials were to produce A and B standards then there would only be straight finals and there would be pacemakers and invited competition in all events athat would benefit from it.

Your thread title says "Cycling makes UKA lok like Clowns". From what you have then written it is apparent that you have not a clue about cycling. Would you like UKA to adopt a similar selection policy to cycling? You appear to be suggesting that the two are comparable.

Here are the facts that make this a stupid suggestion.

Cycling doesnt have qualifying standards, NATIONS qualify for events by a competitor or team earning a place through ,finishing positions at designated World Cup events on the track and World Tour and Continental Tour events on the road.

There is then no trials event in the UK. The team is simply selected by a panel. You could get the nation a berth at the Olympics and then somebody else take that berth based entirely on selection. They may weigh times by atmospheric pressure and humidty on the track, but it is simply untrue to say that having the fastest time gets you selected. In 2009 Kristian House won the national road race title. He wasn't selected for a 9 man team for the world chaps road race. I can't see that going down very well with athletics.

Furthermore getting the opportunity to race in the events which will get you selected is down to another tier of selection. You cannot get into the World Cup scratch race without being slected to race it. So your chance to shine is itself at the mercy of the selectors.

Cycling is also very diferent because there are many, many more full time professional cyclists in the world than athletes. They are contracted to trade teams that provide the majority of their support. As a result it is possible to receive top class support and not be part of the national program.

In reality cycling is very, very good at doing what is good for cycling. There are elements of what they do that are transferable, but massive parts of what they do are not. If you think that UKA are clowns and should follow cyclings example I look forward to you suggesting that we abandon having a trials event and simply allow the selctors to pick and choose who they want to send, and accept that they may not send the athlete with the best performance.

[Damocles]

damocles

http://www.englandathletics.org/page.as ... ch+Mentors

No inside information required - here is the EAAA website - note jav and hammer coach not shot or disc or head throws coach but requires 2 PV coaches.

Bevone, I have no idea who you are, but you seem to be making things up to complain about?
The link you give is for National Coach Mentors, they are not employed as coaches, but as a system to help coaches improve by asking what they feel they need to have, to improve as coaches. They are not employed to coach athletes as you imply.
I contacted England Athletics and spoke to a lady who explained the set up to me. Something you might consider to get your facts right? She expained ther are no event group leads for coaching, as there is no coaching! Also that there are two part time coach mentors for the Javelin, but no part time coach mentors for the shot, hammer and discus. The two PV coaches do a day each, following the moving on of the old post holder, so the same days worked, but more coverage! I think you might in future get your facts right, or are you just mischief making?
If you say there are two part time coaches for the throws at England Athletics, whom you decry as not worth listenung to, NAME THEM and prove your facts on here, where you make your accusations.
What I know is, that I attended two sessions over the winter, at Leigh and Sportcity, where a National Coach Mentor, not a coach, gave day long presentations, on several subjects, which it seeemed ALL wanted to listen to. I'm sure if you contact the area CCSO, they will give you the feedback figures for these? THis National Coach Mentor also drove 250 miles each way to present, not a direct fact about the level of support given to us, but it does show commitment, doing not moaning.

[Damocles]

damocles

http://www.englandathletics.org/page.as ... ch+Mentors

No inside information required - here is the EAAA website - note jav and hammer coach not shot or disc or head throws coach but requires 2 PV coaches.

http://daegu2011.iaaf.org/ResultsMedalTable.aspx

note 33 nations won medals at the last world champs from a host of obscure countries as wellm-mi dare say the rowing, swimming or cycling tables will resemble anything like this. Athletics is the only true world sport in the OGs as most of the technical sports are dominated by first world countries who have the facilites for them where somehwer like kenya wins all its medal in one event long distance running and jamaica - sprinting!

Athletics is like 12 or thirteen different sports in one with the main talent based all over the country which is why a 6 or 7 centred model has been shown to be best as it allows for several centres of excellence and opportunities for athletes to work with thier own local coach or chose from an option of coaches. This approach has been reported on and demonstrated in academic papers and this model was working and is what the current administration inheritted and then they changed it. The two centre model has ironically cost far more than the extended model that was in place and I guess we will reap the rewards in London and then decide what was cost effective.

[bevone]

There is a national coach for javelin UKA and the two people on the website I identified for you. They have not changed that to show two javelin part timers. I went to them until recently for the last 5 years or so. Did you ask why there were no heavy throws mentors out of interest?

furlong - you obviously didnt read properly - but let me reiterate - the infield was uphill before as well. However, birminghm is not used very often in a season for meetings and i think you will find athletes who are going for standards go overseas anywhere which is why I am baffled why you continue to go on about it -you are the only one adn speaking as an athlete and one who has coached elite athltes finding meets is and never has been a problem.

[trickstat]

I agree that the uphill infield is something that really should have been fixed but realistically what can UKA be expected to do? They don't own the venue and, in every other way, Alexander Stadium is the best place to hold the trials.

How about raising the circles to compensate for the uphill bit.They have the time.

Assuming there are no other competitions or throwers that want to train there in the next 5 and a half weeks that is!

UKA do not own the stadium!!!!!

And UKA own Deangate Mch ? No !
And did they bother to work out the inclination and compensate for it ? Yes !
Was this a five and a half week process ? No !
Is the stadium available as normal when the Yanks arrive ? No !

I'm sorry but I do not know the track you are referring to. I would say that I have been to about 80% of the tracks in the South of England and many of the more major venues in the rest of the country. The only Deangate I know is the track that used to be used by Medway & Maidstone in Kent.

Please enlighten me/us.

[sidelined]

Trickstat, I think furlong is referring to the temporary track that will be used in Deansgate in Manchester on Sunday. But furlong seems to be unaware that this track is put together by Nova, who are promoting the meeting, and not UKA.

If throwers want more competitive opportunities in the UK why don't they do what the BMC did, and organise things for themselves? There should be three or four 'throws fest' type events every year, not one.

[Damocles]

There is a national coach for javelin UKA and the two people on the website I identified for you. They have not changed that to show two javelin part timers. I went to them until recently for the last 5 years or so. Did you ask why there were no heavy throws mentors out of interest?

You've identified no-one, you've inferred things. Tell us who you mean and stop implying?

Looking at the website the programme started in the winter before the Berlin World Champs, that's three years. So how did you attend their events for five years or so?

I asked the lady at England Athletics if there were any part time mentors for the non javelin throws, she said no, so my question was answered. If you want further clarification, ask them yourself, as you should have done before your woefully inaccurate posting.

Your lack of factual knowledge of a system you say you were part of, is making your posts less credible by the day. Either start supporting your posts with actual names or dates, or stop stiring things when you are so easily exposed.

[bevone]

Damocles - check out your PM. I was working within the former regime and attended through invite because I had several athletes in the national squads. You are gravely mistaken and ill informed!

Furlong,

I appreciate what you are saying in terms of opportunities to throw at certain meeting but what i have repeatedly said to you that i dont see anyone complaining about it ie coaches or athletes who coach to that level. The AAA may be at Birmingham but how often do people get pb's at the AAA's anyway? 800 and disatnce races tend to be tactileand athltes do not use that as a time trial -just qualify. Why UKA have been so stringent - I have no idea and they are no friends to me. The reality is this there about 10 athletes in the mix- so we are not talking a great number of people to accommodate and the fact that they have not put in uka national coaches or mentors in place for the heavy throws is probably indicative of how serious they are not taking them or are low priority.

Damocles said that implied that the national coach role was to coach the athletes - i never said such thing and rather than pontificating about what the role should be - what it should not be is to coach the athletes - that is called poaching an dis why many coaches dont attend or send their athletes to squads becuase some are there to blatently poach athletes. Not that it should matter that much I have been involved at national level as a throws coach and as an invited coach so was pretty much up to speed on what went on until I withdrew from it all recently. Also I think in the interest of getting the full picture - UKA or the home counties employ those two pv coaches but also Steve Rippon, Alan Richardson adn Scott Simpson who will start as the Welsh performance coach at the end of this season after his sabattical working for UKA and dan Pfaff is cited as a coach to a pole vaulter (and a javelin thrower who bypassed the national coach and two mentors) so I see that as 6 paid positions for PV at the moment as a mentor national coach, (UKA or domestic) apprentice and there isnt one shot or discus coach on any website in a paid position so I think we should get the big picture. If there are any other throws people they employ (i dont know who the two part time javelin coaches are as they are not on any updated website). Julian Ruffilli Ebezant seems to be the most succesful coach at present and he isnt one of the paid staff.

I also not trying to say because I do this or that i know more than anyone else but it is a fact that I have had an extraordinary experience that would make a good novel which has given me a first hand experience of how this current regime operates. ... but that is for another thread!

[fangio]

Am I the only one thinking that Furlong has not got a clue what he is talking about nad is jsut stirring and having a go at UKA? Seriously the thread is titled "Cycling makes UKA look like clowns", and he seems to be talking about somethign which hinders throwers from acheiving the A or B standard at the trials. Given that cycling doesn't even have a qualifying standard to achieve how on earth does cycling make UKA look like clowns over this? Simple, it doesn't, it's just Furlong going on and on about soemhting of very minor significance to the chances of a thrower qualifying, unless of course he believes that the day of the trials is the one day when the throwers could have got their performace in and now their entire season is ruined.