Javelin Sam - age graded.

[Anthony Treacher]

Javelin Sam. Your 8 January 2009 insult on the 'Publication of full date-of-birth' thread: "maybe if you had put as much effort into your training as you have done in pursuing a pointless childish issue you might not have been writing about a race you were in where people kicked your butt….." was completely out of order. That race was in an indoor masters world championships. I honestly cannot feel ashamed of my resulting 62.46sec, a British indoor M65 400m record. In 2008 I also broke the British indoor M65 LJ record to 4.79m. I am an elderly man. The effort I put into my training is three times a week. I cannot train more. Maybe you would care to apologise?

Fat chance. So I will now descend to your level Javelin Sam (my excuse being that age grading calculations might interest AW forum readers). Here is what we have comparing the 2008 achievements of Anthony Treacher and Javelin Sam according to the '2006 WMA Age-grading Calculator' on http://www.howardgrubb.co.uk/athletics/wmalookup06.html (% age performance factor in parenthesis):

% age performance factors:
100.0% = World-Record Level
> 90.0% = World Class
> 80.0% = National Class
> 70.0% = Regional Class
> 60.0% = Local Class

Anthony Treacher best 2008 results (all indoor):
60m 8.58sec (94.87%), 200m 27.81sec (91.29%), 400m 62.46sec (91.47%), LJ 4.79m (87.55%).

Already in 2009, as a 69-year-old, I have indoors 60m 8.78 sec (93.31%), 200m 28.8sec (88.86%) and LJ 4.71m (87.56%). My results are unimportant. My point, Javelin Sam, is that I am obviously none the worse for standing up for myself against BMAF.

Javelin Sam best 2008 results:
Javelin 53.30m (54.12%).

So you, Javelin Sam, are in lousy shape. A 54.12% age performance is mediocre. You criticise me and other sprinters. But on your own reasoning - you need to get a grip of yourself and address those things in your life that are affecting your javelin performance. And don't forget that apology.

[malcolm.fenton]

Age grading is based on the world record for that age, as it stands at the time. Hence a poor world record, means you have a % of a poor performance. On this basis comparisons are not based on a standard level of performance. In this throws this is even more exagerated, as the M40 world records would win olympic medals, whereas in the sprints, they may, just, win a county title.

Myself, I like to use the standard UK top 50 lists to assess my performance. Where, even as a 52 year old, my performance in the Hammer is still inside the UK top 40. Find me a runner that can equate to that level.

Please note that I haven't been rude here, so I would appreciate any response to be similar.....

[BigGut]

I don't think that age grading by world record is a very sound practice. It is better to map the avergae percentage of optimal performance. Evene then I am not sure it is really very relevant.

As for Malcolms top 40 comment. If we were to multiply that by the many fold number of participants in marathon I am sure that there would be a similar level. Certainly my father came 6th in the London to Brighton aged 52 and Stephen Moore won it at a similar age. They were both in the top 10 in the country in an event which has proabbaly as many serious exponents as mens hammer.

The problem with absolute position is that it takes no account of participation levels. That is not meant as an insult but purely a statistical comment.

As for this thread, seemingly another attempt by Treacher to rake over his old tired arguments. I give him an age graded performance, he performs like a 2 year old, spitting his dummy and not listening to the sound advice offered by others or accepting that the decision over who should run in the relay at Linz was that of the Team Manager.

[malcolm.fenton]

"As for Malcolms top 40 comment. If we were to multiply that by the many fold number of participants in marathon I am sure that there would be a similar level. Certainly my father came 6th in the London to Brighton aged 52 and Stephen Moore won it at a similar age. They were both in the top 10 in the country in an event which has proabbaly as many serious exponents as mens hammer."

I don't believe I've ever seen any annual ranking lists for such an odd distance as the London to Brighton? Also, thousands running badly in the Marathon is no basis for comparison. Participation does not = performance, performance does, especially in a 'standard event'.

[BigGut]

They don't Malcolm, but they do have them for the 100km.

They also have a world masters champs for 100km and a european one. Moore headed the rankings for several years whilst in his 50s and was world top 20 ranked.

My point is that the fact that a performance is ranked higher in a smaller field does not make it a better performance. Just as obtaining a higher percentage of a lower standard performance doesn't.

In reality age related performances are about how well somebody performs when taking into account the handicap of their age. Saying that because you are ranked 40th out of the couple of hundred exponents of your event hardly means you are better than a guy who was 400th out of a couple of thousand, I am not on about the joggers here.

The thing is that the size of the population being examined is relevant. Being 20th in a field of 200 is not as good as being 300th in a field of 6000 SERIOUS COMPETITORS.

In addition the relevance of age to performance needs to be considered. Speed goes before endurance, so sprinters would not expect to be as close to optimal performance as the years caught up with them as distance runners.

[Anthony Treacher]

BigGut, as you are fully aware, the (then) BMAF Team Manager tried to cheat at Linz. He attempted to introduce a runner after the relay team had passed the Call Room. The Team Manager thus risked disqualifying the GBR M65 4x200m relay team. I complained about this and the BMAF Team Manager's subsequent verbal abuse. The BMAF Team Manager was not disciplined. The BMAF still refuses to acknowledge that he did wrong and has not aplogised to me.

The matter is covered by IAAF Rule 170.17. 'The composition of a team and the order of running for a relay shall be officially declared no later than one hour before the published first call time for the first heat of each round of the competition. Further alterations must be verified by a medical officer appointed by the Organising Committee and may be made only until the final call time for the particular heat in which the team is competing. If a team does not follow this Rule, it shall be disqualified.' Those are the IAAF rules and they are perfectly clear on this matter.

Are you saying BigGut that our team should have run anyway with the illegal runner irrespective of the IAAF rules, although we knew we risked disqualification at the end of it?

Are you saying BigGut that it is improper of me as an athlete to file a complaint to BMAF about the disgraceful conduct of my BMAF Team Manager?

Also reflect on the fact BigGut that you are again lowering yourself to the sort of rudeness I received from Javelin Sam; the sort of thing that Malcolm is rightly trying to avoid. If you cannot be civil, it would then be best if you answered the above questions in an offline PM to me in order to avoid more insults and conflict That is what PMs are for. It might also raise the level of the AW Forum.

We have unfortunately digressed from the interesting subject of the '2006 WMA Age Grading Calculator.' The Age Grading Calculator is all we have and I think it has its uses. I would honestly like some more views and input on it. That is my main interest in this topic.

So while we are at it, my view as a sprinter and a jumper is that a good result is still a good result, irrespective of the field, or number of competitors. Maybe?

[BigGut]

I am saying that the team manager is in charge of the team and like a two year old you can never accept that!

We are nopw years on and still you witter on like a demented soothsayer about this nonsense. GROW UP MAN YOU ARE NEARLY 70 FOR GOODNESS SAKE!

[BigGut]

Your original post was not an age grading issue it was a purile attempt at attacking somebody who had the temerity to disagree with you.

The truth is that the age grading tables are flawed because the participation rates of events mean that it only takes a couple of people not to compete at a particular age and the record for that age in an event is weak.

Similarly absolute non age related rankings are also flawed because they use an absolute ranking and take no regard for the number of psrticipants and the actual effect of age on performance in an event.

There probably is no way of accuratley measuring an age related performance. I also would submit that age may not be the biggest influence in some events. For example for marathon the number of years of hard training and racing will take more of a toll on a V40 than the mere fact he is 40. As a result Harry Clague and Eddie lee ran sub 2:20 as vets, but had very few years of punishment of their bodies. Meanwhile guys who had competed hard for 20 years did not achieve this feat.

[jjimbojames]

Whoa - how many personal issues can we air in public in one thread!!

On topic, I can see relevant arguments from most here, which to me suggests it's perhaps just a little too tricky to come to the 'perfect answer'!

It would be very difficult to simply use national rankings, as speed events would be unfairly compromised - speed goes away with age, and there are more participants in those events, automatically putting those athletes at a disadvantage, compared to, say the throws, where people tend to improve later in life, with experience.

Likewise, comparing one's time/distance to a 'soft' top marker in an event is going to skew results somewhat - e.g. comparison with current Brit standards - Best Brit Men's 60m is =WL, whereas Best Brit Men's SP is only just inside World Top 50

That said, a 50 year old still in the national Top 40 of any event deserves a bit of respect!

[malcolm.fenton]

I was also 13th in the UK at age 46. Longevity does not really favour the throwers, as their training includes throwing, drilling, weight training, plyometrics, running and jumping, so they utilise all facets of our sport to train, not just running. Hence the toll on their bodies is great. I was fortunate, I trained very hard, but very intelligently, which meant that I have stayed in the UK top 50 every year since 1974 and was a 60m thrower over 4 decades.

I'm sorry Big-Gut, but the running doesn't compare. The fact that people find my event too difficult to do (Which it really isn't), doesn't make the multitude who take the easy route, and who perform at a level much. much lower, on a par.

I don't really want to continue this diatribe, as I have made my original point about age graded records...... I'll stick to competing in standard events, where true comparison, over set parameters may be achieved, hell, I dont even get to go downhill, nor get wind assistance.....!!!!

[Anthony Treacher]

BigGut, why is your mindset so closed and authoritarian? Blind obedience to illegal orders went out with the Nuremberg Trials back in 1945-46. Today, an athlete need not blindly obey a Team Manager who is flouting the IAAF rules. On the contrary, an athlete has an obligation to protest, refuse and file a complaint. Right? Come on the rest of you. Stand up and be counted, preferably by PM - so we can avoid more BigGut nastiness that reduces the AW forum.

Back to the subject of Age Gradings. My results have shown at least national class from the age of 19 up to nearly 70, so there is something in it. My Age Graded results improve now but that is only reasonable because I can now train more and better than I did when I was younger.

[malcolm.fenton]

I reiterate.......... Age grading is a nice illusion, but without an equal baseline across events, it is meaninless.......

Only a small handfull of 19 year-olds could beat me last season, that is reality.....

[Anthony Treacher]

Don't forget that the age gradings are based on world records. In my line of business M65 the sprint and jump world records look very good to me. Can anyone identify any world records (including masters) that they think are poor?

[malcolm.fenton]

Try the M40 100 in comparison to the heavy throws.........

21m+ Shot

80m+ Hammer

69m+ Discus

[MarkC]

I reiterate.......... Age grading is a nice illusion, but without an equal baseline across events, it is meaninless.......

Only a small handfull of 19 year-olds could beat me last season, that is reality.....

But unfortunately this also demonstrates why using absolute ranking places to compare (across events) is spurious too. Assume that 10% of 19 year olds training seriously could beat you last year - in an event with only a limited number of 19 year olds competing, you will retain a high ranking. In an event with a far greater number, it may only be the same proportion beating you, but the volume will be greater and your ranking will consequently be much lower. Would that mean your own performance is any less impressive?

[BigGut]

Malcolm,

Your performances are superb, don't misunderstand me I am in full respect of what you have achieved. I think though you are missing the point about distance running.

I gave the 100km runners as an example, where the top vets were actually in the top 2 or 3 brits of any age. Does this make their performance better than your? After all many people also consider their event to be too difficult for them.

The same level of performance done at marathon by the same athletes would not put them in the top 100 marathon runners, does this mean that their perfromance at amarthon is automatically worse simply because more people have beaten them?

Stephen Moore ran 2:31 for the marathon in 1999 aged 51. That is every bit as impressive as your top 40 performance but would have placed him outside the top 40 for the top year.

He came 9th in the WORLD champs, not the world masters, as a vet 50. He was also top of the UK rankings, not the V50 rankings, as a V50.

How can you not acknowledge that the numbers of people competing in an event is relevent when his performances in the two distances were virtually comparable but result in a completely diferent ranking?

Both performances are massively impressive, just as your own are, but the fact that more people competitively contest the marathon makes his ranking and percentage of world age best worse.

[Rex68]

Malcolm, I was generally agreeing with you on this thread until you said:

Longevity does not really favour the throwers

Especially when you followed it up with:

Try the M40 100 in comparison to the heavy throws.........
21m+ Shot
80m+ Hammer
69m+ Discus

Bit of a contradiction there!

Apart from those you mentioned, there's also the likes of Franka Dietzsch, Natalya Sadova, Larisa Peleshenko, Ellina Zvereva, Zdenka Silhava, etc. Of ALL the athletics events, the throws are best suited to longevity.

[mark_fallaize]

Is this the age grading that they have stuck on athleticsdata recently?

[Anthony Treacher]

Mark. hope the PM helped.

Malcolm, your point about M40 throwers well taken. But the WMA-ratified M40 100m world record of 10.29sec by Troy Douglas, Netherlands is excellent. The M40 throws records are also (even more?) excellent - maybe because some throwers are around their prime at M40? Comparing sprinting and throws results should be impossible, like comparing apples and pears. The Age-grading Calculator however does give an idea of how relatively good a sprint performance is in relation to a throws performance. Not surprising because the original purpose of the Age-grading Calculator was to calculate equivalent points for the multi-events.

[fangio]

The age grading is obviously flawed as it works on the assumption that people peak at the same ages, and that those who set world age bests are traingin as hard as the world record holders for those events. I would imagine that Usain Bolt trains harder than at least some of the world age record holders, and so the extrapolation of any relative performance data is of course flawed.

The question about what the best 50 year olds could achieve for example is also flawed in that how many world record holders have competed and continued to train to age 50. So if the talent pool is less can the best performance from that pool really be judged to be as good as the best from the younger end?

It is an impossible task and so all the age graded performance figures can do is provide a figure which actually has very little relevance except to allow older athletes to say actually their performances are relatively as good as some fo the younger atheltes and they can proove it using psuedo science.

[Anthony Treacher]

fangio. Good Lord! It certainly is not your day is it?

I, as an older athlete, do not use these tables to say anything about my performances (other to myself of course). Certainly not to say that I am relatively as good as a younger athlete.

On this thread I used the age graded performance figures to prove - conclusively I hope - that "I am obviously none the worse for standing up for myself against BMAF" over the period. I would add that standing up for myself even seems to have improved my performances. I have bucked the trend. Thank you BMAF, WMA, BigGut, fangio, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.

That I was also tempted to use the performance figures to show that the insulting Javelin Sam - in relation to his peers - was no star is regrettable, although perhaps understandable in view of his unwarranted attack on me and criticism of other sprinters.

I should by now be so used to spineless, anonymous AW Forum mobbers that I do not waste my time on them. Although I did hope that someone here would speak out that it is wrong of the BMAF to break IAAF rules, verbally abuse an athlete, ignore a complaint, 'suspend' an athlete without hearing or appeal, and then publish falsehoods and infringe the Data Protection Act. Not so. You Brits have obviously changed for the worse since I left.

Well, anyway fangio. Its a pity the age graded performance figures are so useless. I'll get on the blower and tell Rex and the others at WMA.

[BigGut]

Anthony,

The age graded tables are fun but they sure as hell aren't scientific. They are flawed in many ways.

THat you think that a thread about age grading is a suitable way to insult Sam is insane. But then it is also insane that you think a thread about agre grading is somehow related to your childish pathetic campaign.

THis thread is and was just another ploy by you to give air time to your completely pointless argument.

GROW UP YOU ARE NEARLY 70 YEARS OLD!!!!

[Javelin Sam]

ooh cool.. does age grading take into consideration recovering from knee surgery and a torn calf muscle?

you should apply to go onto Britains got tallent because...you are funny!

[bevone]

with age grading, if it shows anything it shows that some people do peak later in life as the excellent odd thrower shows but in general terms, people who hit very high levels tend to taper off in many cases due to injuries or because they want to stop at the top. Malcolm's record is inpressive because he has been relatively consistent over 3 decades reaching a high natioanl standard even to this day. 60m is a good hammer throw as he has done in his 20/30/40 and possibly 50's when he gets there (and throws the 5Kg!)

Roal Bradstock is throwing as a 50 year old and throwing 67m with the jav which is good but not as good as 83.84 at his best!

Somehow I am not sure that % of world records for your age group seem to be the only real test of equlity but by 35 onwards so few top athletes are still in the sport.

An interesting debate to consider, however, and possibly more palatatble if some people did not take such offense at people's opinions. Sam may not be taking the javel;in world by storm with his throwing but his website and coaching involvement more than make up for his lack of throwing credentials (at this moment in time - he's still young!)

[Anthony Treacher]

BigGut. It was you who first mentioned the "L"-word (the Linz BMAF-WMA Scandal) on this thread. So why should I not respond? Because I am nearly seventy? Get away!

Javelin Sam - Mr. 54%. Do you think you are the only one with injuries? I ran that M65 British indoor record world championships 400m race - which you are so scornful of me for not winning - from a standing start because I was in pain from a cracked left rib from the long jump. The nice lady doctor at Clermont-Ferrand had said I should not run at all. Who cares?

Injuries are no excuse. Our performances are what they are. The non-bureaucratic set-up responsible for the Age-grading Calculator handles them very efficiently.

Incidentally, I admire anyone who does athletics at all, whatever the performance - and I usually tell them. But there was no reason at all for you to insult my athletics record over the period of my unresolved complaint against the BMAF. I did not like your unwarranted insult. I was right to answer it with data from the official 2006 WMA Age-grading Calculator. I await your apology.

Bevone.

"if some people did not take such offense at people's opinions."

If by "some people" you mean me, then read carefully Javelin Sam's piece on the Jan 8 Publication of full date-of-birth thread. That was not an objective opinion. That was an unwarranted insult that had nothing to do with the topic of publication of full date of birth. Agreed?

This AW forum has an unfortunate reputation for insults and mobbing - typically from people like BigGut and fangio, but the weaker brethren like Javelin Sam also smell the scent and join in. Strangely enough the mobbing is always directed at the underdog - the person who wants to change things, or who has a justified complaint. Not the athletics officers who are doing wrong, verbally abusing, breaking the IAAF rules even breaking the law - like certain BMAF officers. I will take you people seriously first when you have the Civic Courage and take the risk to direct your criticism upwards, for instance at the BMAF. In my case, you have all the details. If not, you may PM me. What are you waiting for?

As to the uses of the Age-grading Calculator, it obviously needs a better forum than this. Some of the posts have been idiotic. I'll try and rustle up some serious input

[BigGut]

Quote from your original post

"My results are unimportant. My point, Javelin Sam, is that I am obviously none the worse for standing up for myself against BMAF. "

It is you bringing your pathetic arguments with the masters fed into it Treacher as per usual.

[fangio]

"I will take you people seriously first when you have the Civic Courage and take the risk to direct your criticism upwards, for instance at the BMAF."

For that read, I'll only listen to anyone who agrees with me.

[Javelin Sam]

Anthony.. seriously.. calm down.. you'll do yourself no good in being so uptight like this.. at your age!

how about you go for a run to cool off a bit.. you never know it could be that run which helps you push on for the gold medal. to say that you cannot train any more than 3 times a week because of your age is being very short sighted. there is a lot of things you could be doing even if it is only for 10 mins. work your core, work your start work your mind! the list is endless.
being in the top 90+% as you claim i would have expected much more from you not this "can't do because of my age" mentality

my father is 73 years old this year and he works 40hours a week as a precision engineer working with heavy lumps of metal. he then finds time to help coach in the evenings and to do the DIY at the house.. he does not say...oh i'm nearly 73 i can't possibly do more he just keeps on going because he doesn't want to allow his age to be a factor..a weakness.

get a grip and stop being such a cry baby over things which have no relevance to anything... i mean come on.. DOB??? hardly going to end the world is it.. are you going to trouble us all from beyond the grave if you haven't given permission for your birth and death date to be engraved on the headstone...

just get on with your training and competitions and stop all the petty, pointless argueing which is a waste of yours and everyone else it affects time!

[Anthony Treacher]

Javelin Sam, You totally miss the point again. That defamatory BMAF notice was not just about publishing DOB. BMAF falsely said that I was ineligible to compete, when UKA said I was eligible to compete. That is why it is serious. Anyway eyes down, look in. It gets worse:

BigGut. Now you are quibbling again about minor detail in the familiar tiring BigGut/fangio fashion.

However, with feeling, if you read Javelin Sam’s actual post of Jan 8, you will see he brought it up “I cannot really see why this remains an issue for you” and “pursuing a pointless childish issue.” “Issue” all adds up my issues with the BMAF - now several thanks to the BMAF’s incompetent leadership. Sam argued so intelligently that if I had not pursued my issues against the BMAF, I would have won that indoor world championship 400m at Clermont-Ferrand. That is flattering but somewhat doubtful and I have indicated why on this interesting forum.

BigGut, I am willing to come to arrangement about the “L” word – the Linz word (the Linz BMAF-WMA Scandal). In coming posts I will not bring it up unless you do. Because you do, you know, just to put me down.

However, I must reserve the right to use the “B” word – the BMAF (British Masters Athletics Federation) word. I cannot anticipate the next foolishness of some BMAF officer and I reserve my right to inform the athletics community. That is because there are no internal BMAF grievance and disciplinary procedures. I have no choice and never had.

Linz was bad enough but my point is that the BMAF foolishness is ongoing. Almost three years from Linz, BMAF officers, now fully notified by the WMA of the IAAF rules and know the facts, are still in complete denial. They continue to aggravate the situation and stoop to nothing to protect themselves. Most recently in late 2008 in deliberate lies to mislead our data protection watchdog, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO), a British government agency. That explains why “this is still an issue” for me.

But BigGut seemingly like everyone else around here, you are an authoritarian. You people believe in the status quo and you ridicule filing a legitimate complaint as “whinging” or “throwing a dummy out of the pram.” Very clever. Despite the evidence I have presented, you just cannot bring yourself to censure the culpable BMAF officers. Not one word. You will not stand up for a wronged fellow athlete. You are miserable, supine cowards the lot of you. And that goes for our so-called national governing body UKA, who should have sorted out their loose cannon affiliate BMAF ages ago. That would have saved us all this bother.

UKA supports the BMAF Secretary’s candidacy to IAAF posts and thus does not wish to rock the boat. A WMA officer disgraced himself on this issue ages ago. The BMAF Chairman is also the WMA Secretary. He deliberately misled the BMAF Committee by citing the WMA VP-stadia as saying that BMAF Team Manager had “done nothing wrong at Linz” – yet the WMA VP-stadia vehemently denies ever having said that. All very edifying.

Javelin Sam. Anyone at my age who does not take one day's rest between training is stupid.

You do otherwise have a point about taking a run. I always said you were a promising lad. I am stuck indoors. I have a sprained ankle from the Swedish indoors.

[Anthony Treacher]

Sorry about all that. Age-grading Calculator anyone? By the way, why not manufacture a portable Age-grading Calculator? It would certainly sell at athletics competitions. With a championships logo on! A top souvenir! Great idea Anthony.