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Paid coaching? Elite coaches?

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Paid coaching? Elite coaches?

Postby plyometric » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:08 pm

Is anyone here paid for coaching? I'm level 3 and never been paid myself, but the coaches at the Newham Academy are on £45-£50 an hour. They aren't UKA licenced apparently (therefore not CRB checked??), and have very little or no experience of coaching.
There were level 4 coaches with vast experience passed over for these posts in favour of these ex-athletes (Tony Jarret, Julian Golding etc), maybe they were'nt mates with the Academy 'boss' Tessa Sanderson??

Nice work if you can get it-15 hours a week coaching (@ £45) of athletes handed to you, already competing a decent level with no comeback if their performances decline (as the majority have)!
Any views on this?
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Postby bevone » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:00 pm

Infairness - I think you may find that Julian Golly was on that L3 accelerated coaching course and Jarrett is a L4 so they are both covered by UKA insurance and are star names as well.

It does sound a bit gimmicky - something in the Olympic borpugh headed up by tessa and friends to put back into the commuity whilst taking quite a wage as well. Will this produce any serious contenders, who knows but it won;t harm trying and looking at the area I am sure there is lots of regeneration money to fulfill the demographics. I'm sure Richmond upon Thames rowing clubs would struggle to find such finance mind you!

I seem to recall that Tessa was an agent for many carribean and british/west indian athletes not long ago - probably about the same time as she was made the deputy chair of UK sport (the one Trevor Brooking head up I think - as we all know, Trevor is devoted to sport in all forms adn not just football as some have suggested).

Basically, this is a classic example of celebrities making the most of their celebrity and bringing their friends along with them. However, I would rather see the likes of Tessa and co doing something good for the communiity rather than the likes of Jordan and Jade Goody who as far as I can see have even less brains than talent becoming millionairesses via their celebrity status because as far as I can see, they possess no talent!

Although both have done their bit for race relations in their time!
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Postby Javelin Sam » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:48 pm

just because someone is a tallented international athlete why should they be fast tracked into coaching.. are all to pathlete great coaches?
Last edited by Javelin Sam on Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Interested » Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:47 am

"Javelin Sam", I think that is the most disgraceful outburst of unprofessional behaviour I have ever witnessed and, whether or not you are a qualified coach, you should be ashamed of yourself. This forum should not allow the post and UK:A should consider revoking or suspending any license you may have. I can imagine the HR response if you had displayed such unwarranted hostility to a work colleague.
Who on earth do you think you are?
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Postby usedtoit33 » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:08 am

Erm ... settle down ladies, please! :roll: Get a grip - whatever Tony Jarrett's worth as a coach is, I don't think he'd care a single bit what someone wrote on a web forum about him!

Though Sam - don't you think there's been enough negativity and bitching on the interwebulator lately? ;) Gawd knows there's been way too much and we don't need any more. It can't possibly help the already drug-tarnished image of athletics when people new to the sport see us at each other's throats, figuratively speaking, when they come onto these boards on the internet. I'm not saying we shouldn't complain when something's "rotten in the state of Denmark", but can we have some calm for a bit? Please?

I'm not having a go at you Sam, just the general atmosphere at the moment which is really putting me off the sport if I'm honest.
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Postby Javelin Sam » Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:08 pm

you are right.. i apologise..
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Postby usedtoit33 » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:23 pm

You're a true gentleman, Sam! :D You didn't have to apologise to me (or anyone else for that matter) but I appreciate it.
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Postby bevone » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:24 am

Did Sam write something that has been deleted? Why has 'interested' got their knickers in such a twist? Sam raises a point that has been raised before that all.

To be fair to Tessa's enterprise - that is what it is and nothing to do with UKA so she is more than within her rights to empoy who she wants and the likes of Jarret and Co are possibly more inspirational to young people than perhap a local L1 or L2 coach from Old Harrodian runners club!

The sport is where it is and we are all entitled to comment and anyone who tries to stifle such comment should perhaps think about emigrating to such a land that will control free speach.

If Osaka was to be a medal fest for GB and NI I am sure many positive comments would emenate from such boards but as I said, we are where we are and things seem to be getting better ad such posts should reflect this IMO.

Post on Sam - as your view is as valid as any.
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Postby Interested » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:34 am

Knickers in a twist? How articulate.
Actually, I believe the matter of Javelin Sam's "deleted" post has been settled (I understand the post was deleted, on further reflection, by Sam himself- much to his credit). He has apologised and I certainly don't intend to comment further on that matter.
As coaches, we have a responsibility to each other to apply mutual respect in our relationships with each other and towards athletes and officials. Without this, the credibility of our status, our viewpoints and beliefs doesn't hold up - publicly or privately.
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Postby bevone » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:31 am

'Knickers in a twist' is a colourful figure of speech that tends not to be offensive and don't appreciate you rude and patronising comment by Mr 'interested'. I don't know who died and made you the king or guardian of coaching ethics and conduct.

I think you could win the king of hyperbole judging by 'your disgraceful outburst of unprofessional behaviour I have ever witnessed' comment. You should get out more - there are far worst thing said or written than that.!

Obviously easily offended or rather sheltered existence.

I would be interested to see what Sam wrote that so offended you. A forum is where people express opinions and if he changed his then maybe it wasn't worth printing in the first place.
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Purely international athletes?

Postby BigGut » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:43 am

What I would like to know is how many of the fast tracked international athletes also had degrees in sport science etc. I know that people tend to think that the only way to learn is to be a coach for many years, but I really don't agree.

Someone with a decent background in sports science working with a top coach for several years at the sharp end of the sport is going to know a great deal. People go on about mentoring but trauthfully being coached by a great coach for years is surely the best mentoring you can get.

If this was nnot the casethen Benjamina nd Williams would surely not have gone to Colin Jackson. They have gne because they know that he has an extensive knowledge and allied to this has worked with Malcolm Arnold for many years. Anyone under the tutorlage of Mr Arnld for that long cannot have failed to learn.

That said I can only see that the appointments are there as a marketing tool as much as anything else. However kids are attracted to success and if you want to get participation levels up then there is surely no better way to do it than to get internationally successful athletes involved with a project in such an intimate way.
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Postby usedtoit33 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:24 pm

Bevone, Sam changed his original remarks after my post I think. I respect Sam's opinion as much as anyone else's.

I don't know whether being an elite athlete immediately qualifies you for being a top coach, but there is one thing they do know: how much hard, smart work it takes to reach the top. Some of our former athletes have become mentors, rather than coaches which may be more appropriate. Personally, I don't know why it took so long to get our former athletes involved but I think it's a good idea. But, the more people helping and coaching, the merrier!
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Postby bevone » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:49 pm

Hi guys,

Yes I agree about top athletes not necessarily making top coaches. Colin will be judged at the end of the season regarding TIm BEnjamin and co but there have been some recent appointments of ex athletes who are not haivng the impact yet because basically from what I see and hear is that some are not used to the actual process of coaching. Some make basic mistakes but then learn from then and I am sure that they will make it as good coaches.

As you may know I come from a teaching/lecturing/sport science background as well as having competed at the highest level. This is a major advantage for me i.e having experience of being coached by good people, trained with good people as well as having a good grounding in teaching from novices to elite as well is a major advantage and I think it has also developed a good eye for detail. This is not to say Mr XY wouldn't make a great coach straight away but experience of the event and coaching at high standards is a definate adavantage. Probably why I seem to have been reasonably successful so far.

In all honesty, how many coaches would really be up for coaching a world class athlete if they came their way? Would they be able to or would their coaching ability and knowledge just not meet the challenge.

When I was throwing, there were very few people I came across who I trusted to coach me and some cases - were obviously out of their depth.
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Postby Interested » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:21 pm

Bevone - you tell me there are far worse things said than the remarks contained in Javelin Sam's posting, and then confirm that you have not actually read it... as I said, how articulate- and how astute!
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Postby bevone » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:40 pm

Re-send as PM!
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Postby Interested » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:35 pm

I just received a PM written in respect of this topic, which I reproduce below:

Mr Interesting

My first comment was

Did Sam write something that has been deleted?

Hence I have yet to read it. However, I doubt that this will be the 'most disgraceful outburst of unprofessional behaviour I have ever witnessed '

There is a time and place for being articulate and am afriad this is no one of them as I feel you are not deserving of it.


You condescending tosser. You need to get out more!

'as I said, how articulate- and how astute!'

Who died and made you king

(End of message)

Oh dear!
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Private Message

Postby Oleg » Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:22 pm

I think that the idea of the private message is that it stays private but since you have shared it with us I would agree that bevone makes some valid points in there.
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Postby Interested » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:37 pm

Such as?
The 'guy' (who presumes I am a male) comments on a matter which is completed and which he has not been a party to. 'He' has a history of trying to negate every positive post on the site. Plyometric's original point has survived, but with no thanks to 'Bevone's' boorish tirade.
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Re: Paid coaching? Elite coaches?

Postby TheRealSub10 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:25 pm

plyometric wrote:Nice work if you can get it-15 hours a week coaching (@ £45) of athletes handed to you, already competing a decent level with no comeback if their performances decline (as the majority have)!
Any views on this?
In many ways it is the job of the athlete to decide if the coaching is working or not and if it is not then look elsewhere. There are many talented coaches in the UK you just have to find them. All coaches should be paid for their work we just need to find ways to let it happen.
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Postby usedtoit33 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:33 pm

Sadly I don't think there's ever going to be enough money to pay coaches what they're really worth.

I don't know whether those athletes should have been fast tracked or not. I've never trained to be a coach but I did used to be a club athlete. I've also taught dance - which is basically teaching movement and coordination skills as well as taking people through exercises to develop those skills.

But I remember trying to pass on some sprinting technique tips to a mate's school kid once and communicating those things is definitely an art. I knew perfectly well what I meant but getting someone else to understand it is a different thing altogether.

Which is where the art of coaching comes in. I also think it must be the most difficult bit about the transition from athlete to coach. And that must take time and experience to develop that communication. Some will make the transition quickly 'cos they're just gifted that way, but others wil take longer I think.
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Postby bevone » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:14 am

'He' has a history of trying to negate every positive post on the site.

'He' ?????????????????

and the rest of the sentence??????????????

So you thought you'd show me then eh!!!!!!!!!

Lack or perceptive reasoning and patronising - a hell of a combination!
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Postby lifebeginsat40 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:21 am

Peace All! X
Last edited by lifebeginsat40 on Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby usedtoit33 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:48 am

Talk about people being able to start a fight in an empty room!

Plyometric's original point about being paid for coaching in an increasingly professionalised sport is an interesting one and I'd much rather read people's views on that topic than posts and posts of a slanging match over sweet FA.

Take it outside, gentlemen please!
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Postby Interested » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:31 am

Ok, let's get one thing clear. A discussion via PM suggests a mutual acceptance of something, even an acceptance of differing views - what I received was an uninvited rant by some irate fool who has apparently had his ego dented. I posted the message to illustrate the point.

It is ironic that this 'argument' has resulted because a fellow coach posted a remark which was certainly defamatory and, on reflection, conceded that he was out of order in expressing his entitled view in the way he did.

I enjoy reading the posts on this site and there are some valuable observations made. A small minority of negative, boorish louts who seem to want to hijack every reasonable discussion should not be allowed to wreck the principles behind it...
Keep taking the tablets, Bevone (so long as they're legal) - they should have an effect eventually.
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Paid coaches

Postby BigGut » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:06 am

Let's be honest here, unless we are talking massive corporate sport such as football then your club coaches are paid for by the members of that club. I pay for my hockey coach through my subs to my hockey club and he is about as expensive as these guys.

If parents were prepared to pay £3 a session then my clubs coaches would be able to be paid well over £20 an hours. That is the reality that athletes and not the ngb need to pay for their coaches. Unfortunatey this does not lead to a fair distribution of coaching as it places a cost on being coached.

There are then special cases such as Newham where the local authority, in this instance, has a specific need and wishes to employ people to meet it. THey are working with local youngsters and not as suggested with already successful athletes and the Council obviously sees that the high profile appointments may lead to more success, after all we aren't talking coaching actual current world class athletes here.

I don't think coaches will be paid for a long time yet and even then not all will be paid, since volunteers will always exist and you should not be able to volunteer yourself into an income.
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Postby Interested » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:13 am

If speaking strictly in terms of a coach being paid for coaching in relation to his own club, I think BigGut is absolutely right. It isn't going to happen just yet!! However, there are certainly opportunities for coaches to at least recover the costs of their club involvement (personal equipment, travel to meetings etc) by undertaking sessions of general conditioning work.
Although I now make my living almost exclusively by coaching appointments and related work, some years ago I began to earn extra income by training local sports clubs (pub soccer teams etc) via circuit training and other general conditioning sessions in a local park or nearby community centre for what would now be around £25 per sixty minute session. Some clubs would have maybe 15-16 members when helpers, managers etc were included. The cost to them would be little more than £1.50 per head. Easily affordable, money well spent and a nice little earner, as they say!
The sessions were quite simple body weight exercises and as long as I had a whistle to blow and shouted a lot, everyone was happy. If you are lucky enough to train a team which improves a lot or does well in their league, other teams will follow! You will get much credit for any improvement in their collective ability and, as there tends not to be too much T&F comp in the winter months, it's a convenient way of earning on weekends, too.
Drawbacks can be: availability of your time (how much do you want to earn? how much time can you spare in additon to your club involvement?), insurance: (most football teams have insurance of their own for matches and training, but having a private policy is obviously better) and income tax: ...
The upside is, you can develop your coaching skills while undertaking this type of work - a sort of paid apprenticeship, from which both you and your athletes will benefit over time.
I'm not sure how the situation is for field eventers, who the public generally accept as specialists, but the truth is, it is difficult to persuade anyone that running is an activitity which requires specialist coaching. We can all do it, can't we? seems to be the general view. If you're going to charge little Johnny for running round a track, he can run round the park with his dad. This is the difficulty. But, believe me, the money is there to be earned.
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Postby bevone » Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:02 pm

Interested -

You are a patronising bafoon who deserves no more of my time or attention. And to imply that I would take illegal drugs to imply that once again you are taking the higher moral ground.

Maybe you could furnish this site with the fruits of your successful coaching achievements so we could marvel at the relevence of your postings. Lots can actually talk a good game - but ultimately you are judged by your delivery!
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Postby Interested » Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:12 pm

Bufone, 'Keep taking the tablets' is a colourful figure of speech that tends not to be offensive to most people. However, your keyboard seems to generate a LOT of testosterone, certainly more than is likely to be produced naturally. Are you not well?

Ultimately, I think, people are judged by the way they conduct themselves throughout their lives... how do you think you are doing up to now?

I quite agree that we have spent enough time bickering over this topic (which you seem intent on hijacking...) so shall we agree that, as we are now on page two, we should learn to live with our differences and move on.. to allow the topic to be discussed and developed by others?
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Re: Paid coaching? Elite coaches?

Postby sausage » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:52 pm

plyometric wrote:Is anyone here paid for coaching? I'm level 3 and never been paid myself, but the coaches at the Newham Academy are on £45-£50 an hour. They aren't UKA licenced apparently (therefore not CRB checked??), and have very little or no experience of coaching.
There were level 4 coaches with vast experience passed over for these posts in favour of these ex-athletes (Tony Jarret, Julian Golding etc), maybe they were'nt mates with the Academy 'boss' Tessa Sanderson??

Nice work if you can get it-15 hours a week coaching (@ £45) of athletes handed to you, already competing a decent level with no comeback if their performances decline (as the majority have)!
Any views on this?

I agree with you that its a jobs for mates situation,the same as its always been.
UKA is also like this,if your face dosnt fit you dont have a chance.
I'm a coach based in East London,and what I cant understand is why they are concentrating on 13 & 14 year old athletes for the Academy,in 2012 they will only be 18/19,and surely not ready for the olympics.
In response to Tony Jarret not being a good coach,he has been there and done it,has a great technical eye and experience you cant get from a coaching manual.
While on the subject of "jobs for the boys" look at UKA's Achieving excellence in coaching programme,there are a few names on there which wouldnt be if they wernt part of the "in crowd"
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Postby Interested » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:26 pm

That's actually a really valid point you make about the age of athletes being trained with 2012 in mind... most of the athletes lost to the sport drop out in the two or three years after completing their education.. or, to put it another way, in the early years of surviving in the real world of employment etc.
Those athletes who survive this period while continuing to develop as athletes are likely to be early U23's now, with a solid training background behind them, still learning the finer technical aspects of their events and inured to the hardships of combining working life with sports participation.
Would you agree,then, 'sausage', that this is the age group (with 2012 and beyond in mind) that should be the initial targets of upcoming development/support schemes?
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