What comps are there in the UK to qualify for throwers

[Geoff]

On the face of it you would expect an even split between the event groups but the list of eligible events does indeed provide more opportunities for runners.

The Trials; UKA domestic televised
event programme; domestic
internationals; the Home Country
Championships; the British Universities
(BUCs) Championships; UKA UK
Challenge Series events including Event
Specific competitions such as the British
Milers Club and Jumps & Throws series

There are more opportunities in televised events for runners than throwers but the the major factor is BMC meetings.

[BigGut]

Then again throwers get 3-6 attempts to qualify per competition whereas runners only get 1. Just putting that out there.

[BigGut]

No heats are very important too, because it is far easier for a thrower to throw a qualifying distance in a heat than it is for a distance runner to do so, since a lack of competition has a physical disadvantage but not for the thrower.

I am not confusing things at all, I am merely saying that a thrower needs to nail one out of 6 throws to get the standard whilst a runner needs to nail their one attempt. This is probably also the reason that BMC events are included. Many of the other events will be about winning the event not achieving a time, as such they are not likely to result in a qualifying standard being attained. Obviously in the throws this is again less relevant as the competition that you face does not have a physical benefit.

As such including the BMC events doesn't give the advantage that you think, since in reality they are probably the main avenue for chasing qualifying times in the UK.

[Geoff]

UK Challenge Events 2012
Date Meeting Venue
Sat 19 May 2012 BMC Nike Grand Prix Info Sportcity
Sat 26 May 2012 British Athletics League Division 2 Info Basingstoke
Sun 27 May 2012 British Athletics League Division 1 Info Lee Valley
Sun 27 May 2012 British Athletics League Division 3 Info Derby
Sun 27 May 2012 British Athletics League Division 4 Info Derby
Sat 9 Jun 2012 BMC Nike Grand Prix Info Watford
Sat 9 Jun 2012 British Athletics League Premiership Info Birmingham
Sat 30 Jun 2012 British Athletics League Division 1 Info Gateshead
Sat 30 Jun 2012 British Athletics League Division 2 Info Glasgow
Sat 30 Jun 2012 British Athletics League Division 3 Info Southampton
Sat 30 Jun 2012 British Athletics League Division 4 Info Stoke Gifford
Sat 30 Jun 2012 British Athletics League Premiership Info Hendon
Sat 7 Jul 2012 BMC Nike Grand Prix Info Stretford
Sat 21 Jul 2012 BMC Nike Grand Prix Info Solihull
Sat 21 Jul 2012 British Athletics League Super8 Semi Final Info Various
Sat 28 Jul 2012 British Athletics League Division 1 Info Hendon
Sat 28 Jul 2012 British Athletics League Division 2 Info Derby
Sat 28 Jul 2012 British Athletics League Division 3 Info Derby
Sat 28 Jul 2012 British Athletics League Division 4 Info Bournemouth
Sat 28 Jul 2012 British Athletics League Premiership Info Hendon
Sat 18 Aug 2012 British Athletics League Division 1 Info Eton
Sat 18 Aug 2012 British Athletics League Division 2 Info Bromley
Sat 18 Aug 2012 British Athletics League Division 3 Info Swansea
Sat 18 Aug 2012 British Athletics League Division 4 Info Eton
Sat 18 Aug 2012 British Athletics League Premiership Info Liverpool
Sat 25 Aug 2012 BMC Nike Grand Prix Info Bedford
Sat 8 Sep 2012 British Athletics League Super8 Final Info TBC
Sat 15 Sep 2012 British Athletics League Qualifier Info Abingdon

[BigGut]

OK,

Given the number of quality distance runners we have had over the decades then I think you need to look at the BAL records and realise that all of the BAL events are basically a no go for achieving Olympic qualification as a middle and long distance runner. Throughout the entire history of the league there has never been even a B standard achieved for 1500, 5000 and s/c. There has been a B standard in the 800m, Seb Coe running 1:46.18 as opposed to a B qualifier requirement of 1.46.3.

Menawhile there have been A standards achieved in Shot, Discus and Javelin and a B in Hammer. The BAL events provide an opportunity for throwers to achieve the qualification but do not provide one for distance runners. The BMC events redress this balance.

[bevone]

I am not sure what the issue is here. In terms of throws for jav and discus there are certain vvenues whihch are more friendly than others. Bedford is a javelin pb heavan and good for the discus - as is loughborough and hendon- 0ne or two other venues are also used and have good conditions, so there are ample opportunities to throw in good conditions. Soe of the isues with throwers is that in smaller league mathcew syou can only get three throws wth 5 minute warm ups which do not facilitate good throws. there are enough meets however!

[bevone]

Same venues and more as the wind does not have such an effect. There are plenty of venues for the hammer and they have enough good domestic comps and one or two may even get european comps. Hence i dont see what the issue is here- you can have a good comp most weekends

[bevone]

Furlong

I assume by your ignorance,unlike you, having had a few athletes who have gone to major games and required qualifing marks, finding pertinent competitions had not been a problem. Irrespective of overseas competitions which are offered to those who are good enough to be chasing A or B stanadards (ie not club athletes), you could from May onwards throw every week nearly throughout the season. The top throwers prior to that would had an opportunity to throw at a winter meeting to qualify for the european winter throws match (i know it isnt a domestic meet but comes as a result of performing to a certain standard at the domestic meet) BTW I am pitching this at elite level as this debate is about legality of the throws in the US meet.

Looking back over previous seasons here are domestic meets that fulfill UKA guidelines - or performances were accepted.

May
BUCS
INtercounties
Loughborough int

June
British Athletics League x 2
Euro TC
Bedford games
Welsh/scottish regional champs

July
super 8
AAA's age group u23 u20
AAA senior
english schools
schools internatonal
Major u20/u23 champs
Birmingham games
throws/jumps internatinal

AUg
BAL
major champs
celtic games

Sept
Supe 8 final

There are others missed out such as the grw e cup semi and final which are two mroe weekends and this is before the athlete is offered iaaf or ea permit meets if good enough or specialist invitational meets or even open meets at appropriate venues and officials present. As someone who organises and organised a fair few athletes competition programmes I think i can say that there is never a shortage of meetings to attend. I am not sure what you mean by UKA rules - i thought all competions were under uka rules in this country to be covered by insurance.

I should also point out that UKA puts on meets from time to time to allow qualification marks to be achieved and regularly allows non premiershup athlets to compete in the prem matches as guests if they need qualifying marks. There may be a problem for where to throw in training over the winter for hammer throwers but in the summe tthere ar plenty of competitons to achieve quaifyingmarsk as the thread refersto. Also reading back through comments - bg refers to throwers not necessarily requirng competition to throw far unike distance runners who need to be in fast races and seems to be the case with sprints as well. Many a thrower has thrown their pb at an open meeting in Norwich or cosford or a decathlon in the US. Look at the all time lists an only a few of us have achieved their pb's at significant meetings. So I would have to agree in general terms at his general point.

[bevone]

The commonwealths were in october so I was being thorough - and 1 meet of about 20 was after the major games in august! I didnt include the two UK permit meets at gateshead and the palace either, and others keep poppping up in my memory. The BUCS has had top performers throw in it and continues to do so this year. You have made a point about one or two meets but that still leaves 15-20 meets - how many do you want and most top athletes only do about 15 meets in the year and there is a time when they have a mid season break depending upon the cycle they are following.

15 to 17 meets to achieve qualifing marks in the UK from May - I would say that was more than adequate and that has not inclued the various loughborugh /charnwood opens that they seem to include. As for KPI's - i will leave you to argue with yourself about that.

[BigGut]

Furlong,

You claimed earlier that there are more opportunities for runners. From the list provided this seems patently untrue as there will not be high enough calibre races at the vast majority of the events for anybody to attempt a qualifying performance, something which does not affect throwers.

I think Brett has made a good point in that those with a shout of getting the qualifiers are being given opportunities to compete abroad and get the standards. Surely this should be seen as a step forward. Certainly there seem to be fairly decent numbers of distance runners and throwers currently competing aboard who are in that tier just below qualification standard. I guess the point is that UKA seem to be giving 13:35 5k runners and 70m hammer throwers a decent bite of the cherry, it isn't that important how many chances a 50m hammer thrower or 14 minute 5k runner get.

[BigGut]

YOu really don't get it do you. The BAL matches, Inter counties, Super 8 any regional or celtic champs ARE NOT REAL OPPORTUNITIES FOR DISTANCE RUNNERS. If Seb Coe is the only person who has ever run even the current B standard in the BAL it is safe to say that they do not present an opportunity for distance runners. However since the field has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on throwers they ARE an opportunity for throwers.

What is so hard to understand about this?

[Geoff]

YOu really don't get it do you. The BAL matches, Inter counties, Super 8 any regional or celtic champs ARE NOT REAL OPPORTUNITIES FOR DISTANCE RUNNERS. If Seb Coe is the only person who has ever run even the current B standard in the BAL it is safe to say that they do not present an opportunity for distance runners. However since the field has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on throwers they ARE an opportunity for throwers.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Obviously, not eiligible to run in the BAL but Marilyn Okoro ran the 'A' standard last year at a British Women's League fixture to secure her place for Daegu.

The main point here, despite BigGuts steering the debate into side alleys, is that there is probably only a handful of competitions for hammer throwers to throw the UKA current standard in this country up to the trials. Possible comps are:
BUCS (not sure if non-university throwers can compete in thr hammer)
Loughborough International (All should get in one of the teams but possibly not everyone)
British League/UK Women's League
England/Wales/Scotland Champs (same weekend but possibly different days and Welsh/Scottish are open champs)
Bedford International Games (no middle distance)
UK Trials

[BigGut]

Geoff I am not taking anything down side alleys. Furlong says there are less opportunities for throwers than runners. He states that the BMC events give them extra opportunity. I am merely standing up for my disciplines in pointing out that the BMC events need to be there because the other events do not provide any chance for an athlete to achieve a qualifier in the distance events. If you want to find an event wyith few opportunities try the steeplechase.

[Geoff]

Not a lot of good opportunities in most events! The majority of qualifying performances will be done overseas.

[BigGut]

If you want to know the answer then stop asking people on a web forum and contact the BMC. But frankly why should they be interested, they are Ann organisation set up to help distance running in the UK. If throwers want more events then the Hammer Circle and Jav Club would be better organising them.

As I have said repeatedly though, the BMC events are the only real opportunity for distance runners to chase the times, it isn't an extra chance for distance runners, it is the only real chance. Throwers and jumpers have more opportunities on that list than distance runners and sprinters have more still.

But referring to Bevs point, who do you think has a real chance of throwing the distances who isn't being given ample opportunity to compete abroad and chase the qualifying distances? People don't just have the events listed, they are given opportunity to travel to continental and American meets to achieve them. So unless you think there is somebody who has shown they have the potential to achieve the standards this year who isn't getting any opportunities I really don't see what your issue is, other than you want to stir things up.

[bevone]

bg and geoff why are you arguong with furlong - we have made the point - there are ample opportunities to throw - he seems to be the only person with a problem with it - i have never had a problem finding meets at the elite level my issue if any is the waste of time meets where you get 5 mins warm up and 3 throws. WHAT cpmps are there in the uk to qulify for throwers answer = plenty and why restrict to the uk - if good enough you get invited all over the world anyway. My only problem faced was when i first requested to got to the US early seasons to train and compete in friendly conditions uka refused and refused to allow me to go to any overseas meet or international meet with any of my athletes and WA for that matter as well. For reason best known to themsleves now they are sending bg squads with their training partners and coaches.

PS they have just built a throws centre at lobro for training and competition purposes so i would think that they meet the correct dimensions as do the other tracks.

Also I have not needed to look at the calendar - but arent there super 8 meets, the gateshead and palace meet which ay have hammer as we have some decent throwers now, GRE semi and final, throws fest, intercounties, bedford and birm games, dont louborough alsohave a LEAP EA permit meet as well. Eithe way of good enough they wil ge more than enough good meets with the better ones also getting the ETC meet adn u23.u20 champs as well (english schools!). on top of the 8 or so you mentioned.

pps = bmc meets are usally at less windy tracks not favoured by throwers and vice versa !

[BigGut]

No, you havent understood mine. The bmc didnt wait until this year to get off their backsides and sort the bmc grand prix out. Theyve been doing it well for years. To give credit where it is due the throws fest idea seemingly ame from jav fest organised by spme proactive javelin throwers. If there isnt an equivalent standard comp for throwers to th bmc events that is not the fault of uka. The bmc is not uka to misquote annie lennox distance is doin it for itself.

I would suggest that i a well advertised well organised series of throws eents were run then they would e included. But they would need to be open to all and and around the country to match bmc.

Can you at least admit that thete are more genuine chances for hammer throwers than steeplechasers and that the bmc events are merely redressing the balance.

[usedtoit33]

Don't forget the 10000m runners. Although they do get longer to qualify, there's a dearth of top-class 10ks in the world, never mind in Britain. If you need an in-season qualifier I think you've basically got to go to the USA in April/May or the Euro 10k early season.

[fangio]

What "mistake", who are you suggesting is going to miss out just because they can't get a competition?

As far as I can tell our top throwers have already competed in overseas events, at tracks conducive to good throws.

[fangio]

Furlong, read the posts, you have not given a single name of anyone you think will miss out due to lack of competition despite being asked to do so, so cut the patronising tone.

By top throwers I refer to those who have at some point in their recent career thrown the A standard. You seem to be refering to an event in which no one got within 3m of the A standard last year. That UKA have not sent an athlete who has a PB 5m11 behind the A standard on trips I don't really find that surprising. Alex Smith on the other hand I expect will get overseas opportunitites.

So as asked previously, WHO do you think will not qualify DUE to lack of opportunities to throw. Given Smith is likely to get eh B stadnard twice, and therfore anyone else would need to throw 78m to beat him to qualification I really don't see anyoen missing out due to lack of opportunity. Sending loads of others to events to possibly get the B standard seems a little pointless.

It is unlikley that 2 hammer throwers will go over 78m, so they are looking at getting 2 B standards, if they can't throw the B standard twice in the events available then I don't see how they are up to the standard of the rest of the team.

[BigGut]

Surely being after the trials is irrelevant. It is being after the july 8th deadline for selextions that matters.which gives throwers another chance denied torunners namely the european champs. I fully expect that post the trials anybody short of the qualifiers will get opportunities to get them. They have done this in the pat and the first selection meet is post the euros for a reason.

You keep talking about events being post the trials and being patrnising to other posters.you say that people havent read the rules. Well if you have read them why do you keep talking about events being post trials being irrelevant. I can only assume it is either because you are too stupid to read the rules correctly or you are deliberately misrepresenting them. Do you have another reason?

Also do you concede that there are less genuine domestic opportunities for distance runners to get the standard than hammer throwrrs, especially in the case of steeplechasers whose event is not in the bmc meets and 10k runners who also are not included in super8 bmc or the grand prix?

[BigGut]

No,

The 10,000m is not part of the BAl or the Inter-Counties and it isn't in the BMC schedules for the two BMC events.

The Hammer is in the BAL, where guests are accepted, and is in the Inter-Counties.

In addition the other distance events have no real chance of qualification for the BAL matches as the fields are simply not good enough to give people a genuine chance. Outside of the trials the two BMC events are the only place where a qualifying time could realistically be chased at 1500m, 3000sc and 5,000.

I am not answering your question about all qualification events, because I am not debating that point. I have said repeatedly now that I think that other events should be included. However I am catagorically stating that your assertion of bias against throwers is utter garbage and they have far more opportunities in the UK to qualify than do distance runners.

Now what is your point. Are you saying that anybody will miss out on qualification in the throws because there are not enough domestic comps? Come on actually make an explicit point rather than just implying things and then denying that's what you meant.

[BigGut]

Who will miss out. Come on who do you think will not be given international comps?

On the list provided by Bev I think if you look at the Uka selection criteria you will find that standards achieved since May 1st 2011 can qualify you, it's there in the rules you say that I don't understand. Perhaps this explains why the inter counties and all the events you keep saying are after the Olympics are relevant, they are relevant because the 2011 comps are relevant to 2012 qualification and 2012 relevant to 2013 competition.

As such you cannot say that these events are not chances to achieve qualifying standards, they are. So maybe you need to read and understand the rules yourself before attacking other people.

[BigGut]

No, no, no. Your thread title says comps in the UK to qualify for throwers. These events are in the UK and and getting A standards there would count towards qualification. Just because none of the hammer throwers from the UK got anywhere near the A standard last year this doesn't not change that this event qualifies.

In addition 3 out of 16 hammer throwers at the inter counties threw seasons bests, so why is this not a relevant event for standards. It cannot be the venue, because there were several other seasons bests at other events at Bedford. So please explain why it's good enough for some throwers to throw their best but not others. I am genuinely interested to hear why this is. I have tried to point out that you do not understand distance running, but I just got attacked for pointing things out that I know.

[Damocles]

I posted this yesterday on another topic, but it seems to fit here also?


Re: Greg Rutherford
by Damocles » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:17 pm

I must agree with Geoff. Any foreign competition is seen as examplary and our own as substandard. I would hazard that our officials are the best in the world, yet they are disrespected in this way. OK, I'll agree that a Southern League event may be considered not 'good' enough, but why are some foreign comps not viewed with the same jaundiced eye? Go to Utube and look at Bret Morse's 66 metre throw in Sweden. It shows a training comp with a lack of officials and a barely discernable sector, it was immediately accepted as above board though. Alex Smith threw at Hull, in a thunderstorm, to throw a World's qualifier, with full officials, AS THERE WERE NO OTHER COMPETITIONS AVAILABLE IN EUROPE TO THROW AT, but this was turned down and was initially not included in the on-going rankings. There was no difference between the two, other than the Swedish one was probably even less 'official'. SO why did one count, the other not?

'the competition in question was the OTC pre olympic series.the meet met all required criteria ie number of officials,correct measuring,wind speed gauge etc.other competitors were Mark Dry ht 71.75m Sophie Hitchon ht 71.61,Zoe Derham ht ? Goldie Sayers jt 63m and bits.' Were you there Skiper, as you seem to have an intimate knowledge of the facility and the judging? A few days ago there was an inter area match, along with a team of visiting Poles at HUll. Again, despite the level of competition, and well qualified British judges, the athletes were told this would not count if anyone achieved an olympic standard?

So, from the 1st April (Quite apt really), through to the forthcoming, restricted entry, BUCS, there has been no opportunity for a thrower within the UK, to gain an olympic qualifier, as no home meets were 'good' enough!!!!!

So, it may end up, that with the lack of opportunities, that the last chance to qualify for the Olympics, will be UPHILL at Birmingham. I really don't care about naysayers coming on and saying they should already have qualified.... they couldn't for 6 weeks of the qualifying period, or that uphill is the same for eveyone. The nature of the infield was well expained last year by the National Coach Malcom Fenton, so we don't need to go there again.

[BigGut]

Given that in 2011 only 4 Europeans achieved the 10,0000m a standard and you need a decent field to get the time then European champs are irrelevant for 10,000m runners as well.

At some point you need to realise that hammer is not some especially hard done by event. Domestically there are only 2 chances for marathon runners as well ad one of those is an extremely difficult course.

I think the rules are there to stop specially convened comps at clubs to basically give throwers and jumpers unlimited chances to make that ie perfect throw/jump. If the event is abroad and part of a meet then this is not the case. I have said before and will say again that I would like to see regional champs and leagues included, despite the fact that this would not aid distance runners one bit.

However I do not think that this is all that relevant as I cannot see uka not giving athletes foreign opportunities if they are the best ithe country and need comps to qualify. So I don't get why it's a issue.