Chinese Female distance athletes of the 1990's

[george]

After looking through the world all-time lists, I realised that not only are there the un-touchable records set by Eastern Bloc athletes, there appears to be a separate group set by Chinese women that appear out of reach. The 1500m, 3000m and 10000m for women are dominated by Chinese athletes. All these marks were either set on 11/09/1993 in Beijing, or 18/10/1997 in Shanghai. Why are these marks so un-touchable? I understand that the 3000m is run a lot less frequently now, but the 1500m and 10000m records are significantly faster than any times run since 1997. I understand drugs have been linked to the performances, but I find it strange that all these top class performances can happen in two national level competitions, 4 years apart.

[d pickup]

George
Co-incidently in 'lack of world record joy', in Current events, I've shown curiosity about the 93/97 CHN lady runners. You might be interested to look, comment.
D Pickup
30sep09

[waterjump]

It's amazing what drugs can do!!

[d pickup]

It's amazing what drugs can do!!

Maybe ... but why just '93 & '97?

1.5k top 11 all-time performers - 2 CHN races, 1 in '93, 1 in '97
01 3:50.46 Yunxia Qu CHN 25/12/1972 1 Beijing 11/09/1993
02 3:50.98 Bo Jiang CHN 13/03/1977 1 Shanghai 18/10/1997
03 3:51.34 Yinglai Lang CHN 22/08/1979 2 Shanghai 18/10/1997
04 3:51.92 Junxia Wang CHN 09/01/1973 2 Beijing 11/09/1993
05 3:52.47 Tatyana Kazankina URS 17/12/1951 1 Zürich 13/08/1980
06 3:53.91 Lili Yin CHN 11/11/1979 3 Shanghai 18/10/1997
07 3:53.96 Paula Ivan ROU 20/07/1963 1 Seoul 01/10/1988
08 3:53.97 Lixin Lan CHN 14/02/1979 4 Shanghai 18/10/1997
09 3:54.23 Olga Dvirna URS 11/02/1953 1 Kyiv 27/07/1982
10 3:54.52 Ling Zhang CHN 13/04/1981 5 Shanghai 18/10/1997
..... 3:55.0 Tatyana Kazankina 1 Moskva 06/07/1980
..... 3:55.01 Lixin Lan 1h2 Shanghai 17/10/1997
11 3:55.07 Yanmei Dong CHN 16/02/1977 6 Shanghai 18/10/1997

3k top 7 all-time best performances - 1 meet in '93
01 8:06.11 Junxia Wang CHN 09/01/1973 1 Beijing 13/09/1993
02 8:12.18 Yunxia Qu CHN 25/12/1972 2 Beijing 13/09/1993
..... 8:12.19 Junxia Wang 1h2 Beijing 12/09/1993
..... 8:12.27 Yunxia Qu 2h2 Beijing 12/09/1993
03 8:16.50 Linli Zhang CHN 06/03/1973 3 Beijing 13/09/1993
04 8:19.78 Liyan Ma CHN 03/11/1968 3h2 Beijing 12/09/1993
..... 8:21.26 Liyan Ma 4 Beijing 13/09/1993

5k all time world rankings - 1 meet in '97
06 14:28.09 Bo Jiang CHN 13/03/1977 1 Shanghai 23/10/1997
11 14:29.82 Yanmei Dong CHN 16/02/1977 2 Shanghai 23/10/1997
.... 14:31.27 Yanmei Dong 1h1 Shanghai 21/10/1997
.... 14:31.30 Bo Jiang 2h1 Shanghai 21/10/1997
19 14:32.33 Shixiang Liu CHN 13/01/1971 3h1 Shanghai 21/10/1997

10k all time world rankings - 1 '93 & 1 '97 meet + Ms Sun in '03 / '02 / '05 & Ms Xing in '04 / '05 / '03
01 29:31.78 Junxia Wang CHN 09/01/1973 1 Beijing 08/09/1993
09 30:07.20 Yingjie Sun CHN 19/01/1979 3 Paris Saint-Denis 23/08/2003
13 30:13.37 Huandi Zhong CHN 28/06/1967 2 Beijing 08/09/1993
21 30:24.36 Huina Xing CHN 25/02/1984 1 Athína (Olympic Stadium) 27/08/2004
..... 30:27.18 Huina Xing 4 Helsinki 06/08/2005
..... 30:28.26 Yingjie Sun 1 Busan 08/10/2002
..... 30:31.55 Huina Xing 7 Paris Saint-Denis 23/08/2003
..... 30:33.53 Yingjie Sun 7 Helsinki 06/08/2005
33 30:38.09 Yanmei Dong CHN 16/02/1977 1 Shanghai 19/10/1997
36 30:39.41 Lixin Lan CHN 14/02/1979 2 Shanghai 19/10/1997
38 30:39.98 Lili Yin CHN 11/11/1979 3 Shanghai 19/10/1997
40 30:47.22 Zhaoxia Dong CHN 13/11/1974 4 Shanghai 19/10/1997
42 30:47.72 Dongmei Wang CHN 03/12/1972 5 Shanghai 19/10/1997

As an example of recent activity, the best 10k CHN:
'06 32.04.32 + 10 others under 33.00.00
'07 31.17.67 + 5 others under 32.00.06 - all in the same race
'08 31.31.12 + 4 others under 32.00.06 - that in 'lots of testing at OLY' year -in home crowd Beijing
'09 31.17.62 + 3 others under 32.00.06 - all in the same race
'10 32.53.24 + 6 between 33.04.15 & 33.16.11 - all in same race

However, the 16th Asian Games are being held Nov'10, ath 21-27nov in Guangzhou, CHN, the ranking list may change. Also CHN National Champs/Trials for Asian Games will be held 07-08oct10, Jinan, Shangdong. Type 'drugs' in the search spot on the Games site though and one gets 'no results found!'! I guess though WADA will be there in strength. (The Delhi site had 3 responses - 2 of them though aimed at spectators!! - and Ldn '12 has 1 already too! even if not re athletes)

Reflecting the CHN / IND rivalry the photo section had Delhi's 4oct opening ceremony, with the title 'Opening Ceremony of Delhi 2010: Stunning? Awe-inspiring? Grand?' Actually in the report they appeared to be generous enough.

see
http://www.gz2010.cn/en


So if, re the MD CHN W, it just a case of drugs it manifests itself in the oddest of ways - or perhaps somebody can make some sort of sense of it.

[waterjump]

In addition to the Chinese, why don't we include the Eastern Bloc performances at the Seoul Olympics 1988 - in particular the Women's 1,500m, 3K and 10K?

[d pickup]

In addition to the Chinese, why don't we include the Eastern Bloc performances at the Seoul Olympics 1988 - in particular the Women's 1,500m, 3K and 10K?

Waterjump
Well, yes, but there seems to be general consensus that there are unhappy questionmarks over much that occurred in Eastern Bloc countries in & before the 80s, and certainly much evidence has come to light re GDR with the issung of Stasi documents. However the high specificity of the MD CHN W in 1993/1997 I feel deserves special attention, though whether anything will eventually come to light is another matter, perhaps a long way down the line of history.

'Waterjump' so perhaps for you the career of Gulnara Galkina is 'interesting'?

[waterjump]

D Pick Up

No General Consensus - Fact! - Dorovskikh / Samolenko is one of the cheating and banned athletes that come to mind. Unfortunately a life ban was not and is still not in place.
Galkina or any other Russian female athlete does not interest me, given their previous history. Unfortunately, a great number of innocent hard working and dedicated athletes have lost out on medals at major championships due to drugs cheats.

[d pickup]

D Pick Up

No General Consensus - Fact! - Dorovskikh / Samolenko is one of the cheating and banned athletes that come to mind. Unfortunately a life ban was not and is still not in place.
Galkina or any other Russian female athlete does not interest me, given their previous history. Unfortunately, a great number of innocent hard working and dedicated athletes have lost out on medals at major championships due to drugs cheats.

waterjump
It would be nice if there were more facts.

Re Russian athletes: some have been caught using drugs and punished - though some would suggest the level of punishment given out generally to athletes of all nations is not severe enough. Are we thinking that all Russian athletes are to be suspected of taking drugs? Sadly GBR has had it deviants from the flat playing field. I hope WADA continue to develop more and more sophisticated ways of cleaning up sport and riding it of cheats.

[waterjump]

Pickup
We all have a good idea who the culprits were and unfortunately they have not all been caught over the years / decades. A life ban is the only solution. Yes, WADA have their work cut out to eradicate the problem and to keep up with the ever changing ways of cheating.
No, I would not like to think that all Russian athletes are souped up, but sadly I will always treat the performances of their female athletes with suspicion given their previous form.
Yes, a minority of GB athletes have been caught over the years. However,I am sure that the stringent drug testing standards and procedures within the UK are not replicated throughout the majority of competing nations as a back up to WADA. GB athletes know that if they take drugs they will be caught. It therefore appears that the playing field is not level around the world and unfortnately some cheats will slip through the net.

[d pickup]

Russia indeed do not have a good record on the drug front: many top female athletes caught in the last year or two; their power lifters were banned from international competitions for a year not long ago; winter sports drug cases ... a finger wagged at them to sort things out ...

Russian sports Dr to American sports Dr: 'what [drugs] are you giving your boys?' that was apparently in 1954.

There has been talk that the penalty for being caught should be lengthened - the 2yr ban doubled ... some feel a life ban should apply.

If the playing field isn't level then those at the bottom of the field must keep shouting - or should the good ones be placed at the top of the field?

I am afraid there will always be cheats and for some Earl Weaver (US baseball player) said it: “If you know how to cheat, start now.”

[waterjump]

Yes, the penalty for taking drugs should be a life ban, I am sure that the majority of athletes would agree with this rule change. After all, the druggies have robbed clean athletes of the opportunity of standing on the podium, the reward for years of dedication and good honest graft to their sport.

The playing field is obviously uneven, with a few holes in it! So, we should all continue to shout for a level playing field!

Maybe we are asking too much for there to be no cheating but the punishment of a life ban should at least be in place to act as a deterrent.

[d pickup]

Maybe we are asking too much for there to be no cheating but the punishment of a life ban should at least be in place to act as a deterrent.

waterjump
GBR doesn't have the death sentence now but even when we did it didn't deter people from committing crimes that resulted in the death penalty for them ie deterrents don't always work.

However a degree of severity might, as Voltaire said, '“Pour Discourager Les Autres” .

For the record I feel the lenient aspects of the drug rules need looking at and upping.

On another tack, associated with the title of this topic: I have been looking for the results of the Chinese National Champs, & Trials for the Asian Games in Nov, and I can't find them; they were held at the weekend. Has anyone tracked them down?

[waterjump]

Yes, it would be great to have the death sentence (life ban) to discourage others - a slant on Voltaire. I agree that deterrents don't always work but I bet that it would make a great dent on the no. of cheats in the sport.
Can't say that I am surprised at the secrecy of the results from the Chinese Athletics Champs nor the times from the early to mid 1990's.
Why didn't they follow up their World Champs / Olympic success with a tour on the circuit?!

[mump boy]

Yes, it would be great to have the death sentence (life ban) to discourage others - a slant on Voltaire. I agree that deterrents don't always work but I bet that it would make a great dent on the no. of cheats in the sport.
Can't say that I am surprised at the secrecy of the results from the Chinese Athletics Champs nor the times from the early to mid 1990's.
Why didn't they follow up their World Champs / Olympic success with a tour on the circuit?!

i don't know if life band act as a detererent but it would definitely put a stop to the offensive sight of drug cheats coming back from their bans as if nothing has happened and winning medals

[JimmyMack]

No proof, obviously, that she was on drugs for that race, but it's pretty heart-breaking watching Samolenko come home with a medal in the 1,500m, while Chrissie Cahill got run out on the line.

[waterjump]

Well you don't start taking drugs after winning an Olympic Gold. It was a gold medal performance from Yvonne. Samolenko should be stripped of all of her medals.

[mump boy]

Why include Olga Bonderenko in your accusations ? i don't think there was anything particularly suspicious about her career

[waterjump]

Because all of the Russian and East German athletes were very suspect and were sometimes caught during that period.

[JimmyMack]

@waterjump Well, it is plausible than an athlete would start taking drugs after an Olympic gold (e.g. trying to hold onto the glory days in the light of dwindling form). But, yes, it is equally plausible that Samolenko and other athletes were on performance-enhancing substances at Seoul.

One could argue that Yvonne Murray, Chrissie Cahill and Liz McColgan were all denied golds.

[waterjump]

In my view, if you test positive then you should lose all medals won up to that date.
In Seoul 1988, Chris, Yvonne and Liz had 3 GOLD medal performances over 1,500m, 3,000m and 10,000m.
Samolenko was caught and Chris and Yvonne should therefore be upgraded to Bronze and Silver.

[Uri]

While I'm mot in any way dismissing any of the explanation suggested by other people her, the fact that all those amazing results were set on local meetings, without any real inspection by foreigners, made me think of another scenario. Are we sure these people actually run the full distance? The most outstanding results are in the 1500 meter race, where the runners start on a rather obscure point on the track – since it's not on the finish line nor exactly at the opposite side the way it is with the 200 or the 5000 races, it's not that conspicuous or traceable if the start line is moved a little. What if by some mistake, unintentional or not, all these people back in '93 actually ran, let's say 1450 meters? Add to this some secret, traditional ancient "supplements" and voilà – the "fastest" races ever.

Another possibility – what if there are these tracks, used only for national events, which are slightly more athletes friendly – instead of being 400 meters they're actually 395 or so. Running 10,000 races on them must be a very rewarding experience. One might think about the stadium in Tula, were the Russians are frequently having their national championships and for some mysterious reason the timed clocked there for the medium and long distances are constantly faster than those measured for the same athletes on international meeting.

Anyway – thank you for having this site – it's my first time here and I'll appreciate you're thoughts.

[d pickup]

Uri
I guess, for many, many of the incredible times created by some CHN ladies back in '93/'97 are the source of many 'conspiracy theories'. For many certainly they stick out like a sore thumb in the current list of accepted WRs. Your reflections, certainly for me, are new, but really is there any hard evidence for them - as for certain other ideas on the records. The fact is it is seen by many that we are lumbered with these performances on the record books, and the performances are bona fide. End of story until something more substantial is produced to indicate they are not good.

Your 1st Message Board input; hope you enjoy future times here.

[george]

A couple of enlightening (but shocking) articles here that you may, or may not have read...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/colum ... ECIPE.html

http://www.rediff.com/sports/2000/aug/28ma.htm

[d pickup]

A couple of enlightening (but shocking) articles here that you may, or may not have read...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/colum ... ECIPE.html

http://www.rediff.com/sports/2000/aug/28ma.htm

george
Thank you for those articles.

Whatever happened or didn't happen back in the 90s, now in 2011 in the IAAF '11 ranking lists there are no CHN women listed in the 1500, 3000 or 5000. The top one in the 10000 is:
32:36.35 Jiali Wang CHN 01/02/1986 1 Kunshan 26/05/2011

Also in the World Uni Games, in Shenzhen, CHN, no CHN women appear in the podium places in the 1500-10000 events (5000 still to occur).

[d pickup]

Interesting results at CHN Nat Champs, just held (after Daegu!)
W
800 2.03.93: 3PBs & 1SB
1500 4.10.49: 4 PBs & 5SBs
5000 15.27.46: 8PBs & 1SB
10000 31.38.15: 9PBs & 2SBs

see
via T&FN link: seeable but not copyable
www.tilastopaja.org/staticresults/201112814636.htm

[HeinzGrot]

So the world record for golf is 18 hole-in-one in a row means that he got every hole in one shot...
this record is held by a North-Korean Minister who is in charge of all the records held in North Korea...
drugs involved or not .... they simply just cheat..
Heinz