What would you have done?

[Anthony Treacher]

Concerning my conflict with BMAF, someone wrote he ‘would have done it differently.’ Fair enough. Let’s see.

If you already know the story you can hop over the following to questions A, B below.

(The sequence of events of the incident at the 2006 WMA World Masters Indoors Championships at Linz, Austria was:

1. The WMA Austrian organisers put forward the M65 4x200m relay.
2. A member of the GBR relay team arrived too late at the Call Room.
3. The formal substitute (a deputy BMAF Team Manager) took his place.
4. The Call Room officials inspected the formal GBR relay team and escorted it onto the track.
5. The BMAF Team Manager arrived on the track with the original runner who was late and insisted that he run.
6. I pointed out this was against the rules.
7. The BMAF Team Manager said. “The team will do better if John runs. Take a chance on nobody noticing. I will cover for you.”
8. I objected that the GBR team then risked disqualification and I found it impossible to run under such conditions.
9. The GBR relay team members (including the deputy BMAF Team Manager) agreed with me and we ran with the team that had passed the Call Room, i.e. not with the runner who was too late for the Call Room.)

What would you have done?

A. Agreed with the BMAF Team Manager - and competed with the team including the runner who arrived too late for the Call Room?

B. Disagreed with the BMAF Team Manager - and competed with the formal team that had passed the Call Room?

[flashcoach]

B. Disagreed with the BMAF Team Manager - and competed with the formal team that had passed the Call Room?

This is a no brainer for anyone with integrity and one who understands the need to stay within the rules.

I note one or two previous antagonists not responding to your questions, perhaps these two lack bottle as well as integrity Anthony

[BigGut]

I would have complied with the Team Manager. Firstly it is his decision not mine as to who participates. Secondly as the person was not at the call room because of an active decision made by the organisers, who brought the time forward of the event, I would feel that the substitution should be allowed and would be prepared to appeal any disqualification ont his basis. I would feel that this would be only right as teams should nopt be placed at a disadvantage because of a decision of the organisers.

What I would most certainly not have done is told the manager to f off and whined about it for years afterwards.

[Anthony Treacher]

More please.

[d pickup]

Anthony

Current score:
disagree with the BMAF Team Manager 1: 1 comply with the BMAF Team Manager.

Most people want security in their life, want to know where they stand with things, want clear pointers, and following the rules, and having others around them follow the rules too, is part of that scenario - or something like that.

In athletics we have rules, and the rules that we have will not be the same as were placed on paper back in the C19th when Governing Bodies for our sport were set up. Those initial rules will have been added to and modified, those additions amd modifications emerging out of experience, whether quietly gathered or out of bitter situations. For instance I don't expect they had Call Rooms back at the 1st AAA Championships held on 3 July 1880 at Lillie Bridge. However somewhere along the line they were added, and now THERE ARE RULES PERTAINING TO CALL ROOMS.

Rules are there for athletes, and also for Team Managers ... everybody involved.

I note BigGut giving weight to 'organisers, who brought the time forward of the event'.

However when you, Anthony, challenged the BMAF Manager about his disregard for the rules, he merely bought forth a comment about the membership of the team and said, allegedly: 'Take a chance on nobody noticing. I will cover for you.' ie he didn't bring up the timetable change matter to help justify his manoeuvring.

If my memory serves me right: we have seen in the past you confirm in this Forum that you did not tell the BMAF Team Manager to 'f off'; you have suggested in fact that it is a fabrication.

Who lies for you will lie against you. ~Bosnian Proverb
The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold. ~Aristotle
With lies you may get ahead in the world - but you can never go back. ~Russian proverb
Truth is the most valuable thing we have, so I try to conserve it. ~Mark Twain
I am different from Washington; I have a higher, grander standard of principle. Washington could not lie. I can lie, but I won't. ~Mark Twain

Men spoke of Mark Twain, who I think you might have liked Anthony:
'He has always impressed me as a blacksmith who stands at his anvil with the fire burning and strikes hard and hits the mark every time.' - Maxim Gorky
"He refused to lie down" - Hal Holbrook

New score:
disagree with the BMAF Team Manager 2: 1 comply with the BMAF Team Manager

[BigGut]

d_pickup.

Firstly it was Anthony himself who said he told the team manager to f off, that he changes his story afterwards is irrelevant, I am merely saying that I would not have done. Certainly if I hadn't done it I wouldn't go around bragging that I had after the event.

Secondly, the fact that the person who was not present in the call room was not there because the event had been moved forward is a fact. I am basing my decion on the facts, not on Anthony's version of what the team manager supposedly said. The fact is that the GB team was detrimentally affected by the oprganisers decision to bring the time forward. It would not be fair to disadvantage a team in this way, so I would be more than willing to switch the original athlete back in, run and if challeneged to take the decision to appeal, as there is no way that the organisers would have intended to weaken a team through their actions.

There are indeed rules but there are also processes for challenging the decisions and running under appeal is one of these processes. Being completely honest I would have elected to replace the substitute with the original athlete without the intervention of the team manager, because it is clear to anyone who views this without bias that the intention of the rule was not to penalise teams for the arbritary decisions of event organisers.

[d pickup]

BigGut
Your comments are noted. Anthony wanted inputs so I gave one. It is good, I hope, that a few of us venture over here and responded. It will be up to him to pull all the threads together, so I think I will leave things to him.

[Anthony Treacher]

I did not know that the relay times has been brought forward. I did not know why the runner was too late for the Call Room. So I could not have rationalised for myself any reason to acquiesce with the British Team Manger breaking the Call Room rules. Particularly because we had made our formal substitution at the last minute – almost too late. The Call Room had already been what I later termed “flexible” in our specific case. I was too grateful finally to be on the track with a legitimate relay team. We had used up our Call Room Brownie points. And I absolutely did not understand how a British Team Manager could have to cheek to invade the track twice and disturb the formal GBR M65 4x200m relay team in this way.

BigGut. Are you completely divorced from the reality of athletics? A GBR team cannot break the rules and then explain it away with: “It’s OK. We were running under protest.” In order to run under protest or appeal, the BMAF Team Manager would have had to notify the officials before, not after competing. Do you understand that BigGut? For some reason, the British Team Manager did not make that effort. Instead he tried underhand measures: “The team will do better with John running. Take a chance on nobody noticing. I will cover for you.” That was of course impossible. The names on the official relay team start list would not have tallied with the names of those running.

If a WMA Call Room official – instead of the GBR Team Manager – had escorted our athlete who was too late for the Call Room onto the track, then I would not have reacted at all. There would have been no incident.

Incidentally, I did not tell the BMAF Team Manager to f uck off.
I told the BMAF Team Manager specifically to get off the f ucking track.

More opinions please.

[flashcoach]

BigGuts
Firstly it was Anthony himself who said he told the team manager to f off

Anthony
Incidentally, I did not tell the BMAF Team Manager to f uck off.
I told the BMAF Team Manager specifically to get off the f ucking track.

So thats three vote including Anthoneys for him and non against, i have disallowed you know who's vote for mispresenting the facts , see above.

Anthony wins 3 - 0

[Anthony Treacher]

Flashcoach, with all respect. There is no winner. And I am tired of you misusing my name for your own purposes.

As to the rest of you - where are you?

This was a real life athletics drama involving the call room rules and acted out on the track at a World Masters Indoor Championships. A true dilemma for athletes and manager alike. So come on. It's judgement day.

What would you have done?

A. Agreed with the BMAF Team Manager - and competed with the team including the runner who arrived too late for the Call Room?

B. Disagreed with the BMAF Team Manager - and competed with the formal team that had passed the Call Room?