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Paralympics

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Re: Paralympics

Postby sidelined » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:32 pm

Kermit wrote:It turns out that Pistorius took 92 steps during the race (2.2m per stride), and Oliveira took 98 steps to win gold (2.0m per stride). To break it down further:

In the first 100m, Pistrorius took 49 steps (2.0m per stride), with 43 steps in the straight (2.3m per stride).

Oliveira, on the other hand, took SHORTER strides - 52 in the first 100m (1.92m each) and 46 in the second 100m (2.2m each).

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/09 ... es-as.html


Thanks Kermit, that's a very interesting article, and the comments are worth a read too. I note that the author thinks an athlete on prosthetics will sooner or later outrun able-bodied athletes because the technology can advance further using all the possible variables of curvature, weight, flexibility, and composition of prosthetics as well as their length. There's an argument that improving the technology should be just another aspect of paralympic sport, like improving racing bikes or tennis racquets. Pistorius has opted out of the technological arms race by his own choice, to compete in the Olympics.

I think he is now genuinely contrite about his outburst. Roll on the 400 - the more drama the better.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby mump boy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:17 pm

SteveK26 wrote:Pistorius has reaffirmed my view that he should NEVER have been allowed to compete against able-bodied athletes.

Clearly the blade does have an effect on performance, and clearly some blades will be better than others. So where does all this leave the IAAF? With egg all over their faces, imo , for making a complete pigs ear of this whole issue.

I (obviously) have no problem whatsoever with disabled athletes competing against able-bodied athletes. As long as they dont have a prosthetic (like a spring) which could propel them along faster than they would otherwise be capable of.
How Oscar can have the bald-faced cheek to complain that he has been cheated beggars belief.

Unless the IAAF back-track on this issue it seems inevitable to me that someone (maybe the Brazilian?) will one day spring round the 400 (or 200) in a major (able-bodied) Champs and break a world record. Then where will we be?


The IAAF banned him CAS let him back in. This is not the IAAF's fault
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Re: Paralympics

Postby Flumpy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:42 pm

It's actually more complicated than that. CAS didn't just say he was cleared to compete they said that it was up to the IAAF to prove that he got an advantage rather than OP prove that he didn't. Which is surely the wrong way round :?

I couldn't believe my ears when I watched this last night. I don't I can remember such a graceless loser.

His argument seemed against Olivera was the exact same argument that so many have made against Pistorious racing against able bodied athletes. To complain about the Brazilain was able to make up so much ground in the 2nd half of the race because of his prosthetics was jaw dropping when it's exactly what OP's been doing his whole career. Complete hypocrisy. Apart from anything else he was completely wrong about the stride length and had he run his fastest time would have won anyway.

The simple fact is he lost and was a terribly bad loser. I'm looking forward to the same happening in his next 2 events.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby mump boy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:51 pm

I thought Ellie Simmonds competed against other people with Dwarfism not against people with no arms !! :? i know it's freestyle and you can use any stroke you like but there is a MASSIVE disadvantage when you can't do front crawl so you have no chance.

Paralympics have now been back on for 27 minutes and all we've seen is i 100m track from earlier race and Ellie Simmonds again. Ade is awful, the ads happen every 5 mins, it's embarrassing

I'm trying but i can't get into Paralympics at all :(
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Re: Paralympics

Postby Ursus » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:16 pm

SteveK26 wrote: Just suppose for one minute that Oscar Pistorius had won the Olympic title in sub 43 secs. What would that do for the sport of athletics? Improve things....or damage it irrevocably?


It would have bought matters to a head. While the powers that be have been very happy to pat OP on the head they have also been secure in the knowledge that he is a semi finalist at best. There is not a cat in hell's chance that they would allow him - or someone similar - to get near the podium in one of their blue riband events. Or if they did, it would only happen once.

SteveK26 wrote:The Oscar Pistorius case has been nothing but bad news for our sport. I for one didn't support him for one sprung-step of his journey in London. There is no valid case for him to compete in able-bodied athletics. Its so transparently obvious that I am gob-smacked he was allowed to 'run'.

+1

And going back to how people perecive the paralympics, I don't see it as elite sport. What I do see it as is a celebration of human spirit and the power of sport to inspire. More valuably, it probably helps many many disabled people to realise that they can achieve very significant things if they put their mind to it, whether inside or outside the sporting arena. And finally it is a great power for changing people's attitudes towards disabilities. Trying to compare it directly to the OG is however wrong.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby Laps » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:43 am

Ursus wrote:And going back to how people perceive the paralympics, I don't see it as elite sport. What I do see it as is a celebration of human spirit and the power of sport to inspire. More valuably, it probably helps many many disabled people to realise that they can achieve very significant things if they put their mind to it, whether inside or outside the sporting arena. And finally it is a great power for changing people's attitudes towards disabilities. Trying to compare it directly to the OG is however wrong.


This is also how I see it.

Though there are one or two sports, where there is no able bodied equivalent, which have the feeling of top class sport. I was in attendance for David Weir's 5000m wheelchair win and my perception was that I was watching elite sport.

It was surprising that Pistorious let his frustration get the better of him. It seemed to me to be frustration with himself, and his quest for competing with the able bodied leading him to not optimising his equipment, more than a true argument with the IPC or his opponent. I share the view that allowing blades in championship events and for record purposes will eventually turn out to be a mistake.

These Paralympics have shown a public appetite for watching disabled sport which must be giving TV, the press and sports governing bodies some food for thought.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby mump boy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:06 am

Ursus wrote:And going back to how people perecive the paralympics, I don't see it as elite sport. What I do see it as is a celebration of human spirit and the power of sport to inspire. More valuably, it probably helps many many disabled people to realise that they can achieve very significant things if they put their mind to it, whether inside or outside the sporting arena. And finally it is a great power for changing people's attitudes towards disabilities. Trying to compare it directly to the OG is however wrong.


This sums up exactly how i feel but have had difficulty putting into worlds all week
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Re: Paralympics

Postby mump boy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:08 am

Laps wrote:
Ursus wrote:And going back to how people perceive the paralympics, I don't see it as elite sport. What I do see it as is a celebration of human spirit and the power of sport to inspire. More valuably, it probably helps many many disabled people to realise that they can achieve very significant things if they put their mind to it, whether inside or outside the sporting arena. And finally it is a great power for changing people's attitudes towards disabilities. Trying to compare it directly to the OG is however wrong.


This is also how I see it.

Though there are one or two sports, where there is no able bodied equivalent, which have the feeling of top class sport. I was in attendance for David Weir's 5000m wheelchair win and my perception was that I was watching elite sport.

It was surprising that Pistorious let his frustration get the better of him. It seemed to me to be frustration with himself, and his quest for competing with the able bodied leading him to not optimising his equipment, more than a true argument with the IPC or his opponent. I share the view that allowing blades in championship events and for record purposes will eventually turn out to be a mistake.

These Paralympics have shown a public appetite for watching disabled sport which must be giving TV, the press and sports governing bodies some food for thought.


Wait till it's over and we will just as soon go back to not having single mention of disability sport in the papers or tv just as has already happened with female sports after the OG
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Re: Paralympics

Postby mump boy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:56 am

This morning at the Paralympics we've talked to a advertising exec who told us how amazing Ch4 is and now we've cut 'live' to a school where kids are throwing bean bags through hula hoops !!
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Re: Paralympics

Postby larkim » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:13 am

Ursus wrote:And going back to how people perecive the paralympics, I don't see it as elite sport. What I do see it as is a celebration of human spirit and the power of sport to inspire. More valuably, it probably helps many many disabled people to realise that they can achieve very significant things if they put their mind to it, whether inside or outside the sporting arena. And finally it is a great power for changing people's attitudes towards disabilities. Trying to compare it directly to the OG is however wrong.


Another vote of thanks for putting into words some of my feelings about the paralympics. Ref trying to compare it directly to the OG, what slightly irritates me about the whole event is that by getting lots of coverage on Ch4 / Radio5 and being in those self-same venues that the Olympics were in, with high ticket sales numbers, the event sets itself up to be compared to the Olympics - and with the fact that the athletes that can take part are only drawn from a very small percentage of total human population of each country there are bound to be events where there are very few "elites" and a lot of "club level" athletes taking part (or worse!). cf. the chap who took 7 minutes longer than everyone else to complete the 1500m; admirable, yes, but not world class.

Matt
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Re: Paralympics

Postby Laps » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:52 am

larkim wrote:Ref trying to compare it directly to the OG, what slightly irritates me about the whole event is that by getting lots of coverage on Ch4 / Radio5 and being in those self-same venues that the Olympics were in, with high ticket sales numbers, the event sets itself up to be compared to the Olympics - and with the fact that the athletes that can take part are only drawn from a very small percentage of total human population of each country there are bound to be events where there are very few "elites" and a lot of "club level" athletes taking part (or worse!). cf. the chap who took 7 minutes longer than everyone else to complete the 1500m; admirable, yes, but not world class.

Matt


Matt I was at Eton Dorney a month ago when a skuller from Niger took minutes longer than the rest in his Olympic heat and got the biggest cheer of the morning when he eventually got to the finish. The reaction of the crowd at the Paralympics is much the same. The feel in the Olympic Stadium is much the same. People are going to the Olympic Park because they can enjoy a similar experience to the Olympics. It seems almost irrelevant that the sport is mostly slower, lower, and shorter. Whilst the Paralympics is piggy backing on the popularity and attraction of the Olympics there is more going on here than that.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby larkim » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:01 am

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for cheering the plucky loser - I was in the stadium for (I think) the Saudi woman in the 800m who was well over half a lap behind the rest (if not more).

I was just voicing a concern that by wearing the clothes of the Olympics, the Paralympics can disappoint by offering less closely fought competition or speeds that aren't that remarkable.

If it doesn't want to be compared to the Olympics (does it?), then competing in the same venues isn't the way to go.

Matt
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Re: Paralympics

Postby Geoff » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:00 pm

The officials in the men's visually impaired long jump have had to take the occasional evasive action as athletes veer off course! But the jumping is excellent with the leader currently over 6.40 and several others over 6m.

Interestingly, they use a 1m wide take off area and measure from take off. This is something suggested for able body athletes but it does make it slightly more difficult for spectators to judge distance.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby mump boy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:19 pm

Geoff wrote:The officials in the men's visually impaired long jump have had to take the occasional evasive action as athletes veer off course! But the jumping is excellent with the leader currently over 6.40 and several others over 6m.

Interestingly, they use a 1m wide take off area and measure from take off. This is something suggested for able body athletes but it does make it slightly more difficult for spectators to judge distance.


There is every reason to give blind people a bit more leway in the take off, sighted not so much

I was most impressed with the one legged HJ jumpin 1.75 !!
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Re: Paralympics

Postby Geoff » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:00 pm

mump boy wrote:
Geoff wrote:The officials in the men's visually impaired long jump have had to take the occasional evasive action as athletes veer off course! But the jumping is excellent with the leader currently over 6.40 and several others over 6m.

Interestingly, they use a 1m wide take off area and measure from take off. This is something suggested for able body athletes but it does make it slightly more difficult for spectators to judge distance.


There is every reason to give blind people a bit more leway in the take off, sighted not so much

I was most impressed with the one legged HJ jumpin 1.75 !!


I competed indoors at Cosford back in the 70's against a one legged high jumper who I think jumped 1.80m. The world record is much higher.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby sidelined » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:28 pm

Larkim, the guy who took seven minutes to finish the 800 was injured and doing a Derek Redmond, as I understand it.

I think you just have to take the Paralympics for what they are, and try and enjoy it. There is still rivalry and drama and extreme human emotion, and that is sport. I do have difficulty with the idea that the woman who jumps furthest in the long jump doesn't win. But as time goes on no doubt more and more countries will participate and the standards will go up and maybe in 20 years there won't be any joint competitions between different categories. I find it easier to ignore these issues in the pool, where all you see is a row of heads and the water seems to be a great leveller.

Mump boy has listed all the things that are great about it, and I agree with all of that. As the games go on, I'm finding that I'm getting into it and my scepticism is fading away.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby paul » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:14 pm

You know that funny-nice feeling in the back of the throat when you feel like you want to burst with pride?
(Er,... maybe I'm the only one it hits there, LOL, but anyway.)

I don't get it often in the Olympics - and only for GB competitors (and even then, only a very few times).

In the paralympics I get it almost _all_ the time...

That table-tennis guy. OMG!

That dressage woman and guy. OMG!!

That powerlifter woman. OMG!!!

I am LOVING this.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby mump boy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:42 pm

paul wrote:You know that funny-nice feeling in the back of the throat when you feel like you want to burst with pride?
(Er,... maybe I'm the only one it hits there, LOL, but anyway.)

I don't get it often in the Olympics - and only for GB competitors (and even then, only a very few times).

In the paralympics I get it almost _all_ the time...

That table-tennis guy. OMG!

That dressage woman and guy. OMG!!

That powerlifter woman. OMG!!!

I am LOVING this.


But you haven't bothered to learn their names :?
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Re: Paralympics

Postby paul » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:48 pm

^^ LOL. No, you're right. I'm there with the admiration, but I am not such a fan of the "celebrity" side of things.

I guess the names; the heroes; even their deeds, will be "lost in time, like tears in rain" as the original blade-runner has it. I don't think they'll mind any of that.

(Reverie on the tomb of the unknown soldier deleted.)
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Re: Paralympics

Postby mump boy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:04 pm

paul wrote:^^ LOL. No, you're right. I'm there with the admiration, but I am not such a fan of the "celebrity" side of things.

I guess the names; the heroes; even their deeds, will be "lost in time, like tears in rain" as the original blade-runner has it. I don't think they'll mind any of that.

(Reverie on the tomb of the unknown soldier deleted.)


:lol: :lol: you got out of that well :D
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Re: Paralympics

Postby trickstat » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:42 pm

Anorak corner - the guide runner for the bronze medallist (and therefore a bronze medallist himself) in the women's T12 1500m is Andrea Giocondi who was 7th in the 1995 World Champs 800m.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby Kermit » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:18 pm

Tonight a 19 year old boy told 80,000 people to shush - and they did .......

WTF!

But boy was he awesome! Strutt you stuff Jonnie Peacock.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby sidelined » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:47 pm

That was a magnificent night of sport. Full stop.

The commentator said that Jonnie Peacock's disability prevented him from running the 200 metres. Does anyone know why?
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Re: Paralympics

Postby Geoff » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:36 am

I have to congratulate Beverley Jones on her bronze medal yesterday in the discus. I have known Bev for many years and play a small part in her coaching and was so proud to see her finally win a Paralympic medal in her fourth Games. Bev started as a sprinter in Sydney then gradually moved to shot but still sprinting, then to discus with some shot! Hopefully, come the Glasgow Commonwealth Games she will be long jumping, an event in which she achieved the UKA Paralympic qualifying distance this summer in her one and only competition.

Special mention to her throws coach, John Parkin, who couldn't be there yesterday, whose worked week in week out to develop her technique. Also to Dave Caldecourt her physio, friend, chef, trainer and general helper! Plus family and friends who play a big support role.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby larkim » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:43 am

sidelined wrote:That was a magnificent night of sport. Full stop.

The commentator said that Jonnie Peacock's disability prevented him from running the 200 metres. Does anyone know why?


Presumably a similar disability that other sprinters have - they are just not very good at it :mrgreen:

I would have thought that the uneveness from being a single leg amputee would be the root cause of difficulty around the bend, but his powerof10 profile shows no competitive 200m being run in his reported career.

Matt
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Re: Paralympics

Postby paul » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:29 pm

larkim wrote:Presumably a similar disability that other sprinters have - they are just not very good at it :mrgreen:

LOL


Right. I just typed "han" into google and the 3rd top hit was Hannah Cockroft.
(And for "hann" she was the top hit.)

The 80,000 seat Olympic stadium appears to be packed to the rafters night after night after night for athletics.

My kids now look at disabled passers-by in much the same way as I look at footballers on AVB's shopping list
(yes, I'm a Tottenham fan), and are obviously thinking things like "maybe an F51, ought to be able to bung a discus about 6m".

And my youngest asked for permission to stay up late to watch a final. "Oh really," I said, "Who's in this final you want to watch so badly then?"
"David Weir", she said.


WTF is going on!?
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Re: Paralympics

Postby sidelined » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:04 pm

larkim wrote:
sidelined wrote:That was a magnificent night of sport. Full stop.

The commentator said that Jonnie Peacock's disability prevented him from running the 200 metres. Does anyone know why?


Presumably a similar disability that other sprinters have - they are just not very good at it :mrgreen:

Matt


Larkim, you have no soul!
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Re: Paralympics

Postby taffy » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:41 pm

I have loved the paralympics. some excellent head to heads.I also love the fact that you get athletes disappointed when they know they can do better and they don't give the lame excuses you often get from olympians.

Thursday before the Peacock race was brilliant.

I agree though that there are way too many classifications and the points system for mixed classifications is a joke.Also club throwing????

I think on the whole C4 have done a good job. They have shown way more coverage than there has ever been before and raise the profile of parakympic sports and athletes. I definitely think these games will have a legacy and inspire others to take up sport.

Thank god they have Clare Balding as ade is awful. I have loved most of the other presenters though especially danny Crates and Giles.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby trickstat » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:48 pm

Why not club throwing? There's no hammer in the Paralympics.
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Re: Paralympics

Postby djlovesyou » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:22 pm

Yep, why not club throwing? You can't have people with some of the more severe disabilities throwing really heavy stuff, you need something that can be easily gripped and thrown.

As for the categorisations, you have to accept that the paralympics is not really designed as a full on 'spectator sport', it has other issues that it needs to address.

Cutting down the number of catergories can only do one thing, and that would be exclude people with more severe disabilities or at least completely stymie their chances of winning a medal. Take the girl in the discus yesterday, she won it with a WR of something like 6.50m. If they made it a 'level playing field' between all three catergories that were competing in that competition, she wouldn't have even been in it. I'm not certain whether the 'points system' is stupid or wrong because (I would imagine like everyone else on here) don't exactly know how it's been calculated, etc, so I don't feel in a position to be too scathing.
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