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Throws

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Throws

Postby SteveK26 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:44 am

Performances have been a bit in and out in London.

But I wonder who, if anybody, will agree with this:

Next year both Hitchon and Okoye will be world champions. Thats my prediction.

Hitchons progress has been relentless since winning the world junior title, (and the world youth title). Only another 3 or 4 metres to go...
Okoye is a giant...he makes his rivals look small. All he needs to do now is harness the massive natural power he has. And he is learning, and gaining invaluable experience.
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Re: Throws

Postby yorkshire_best » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:28 am

They both have the capacity to fulfil your predicition, but throwers do usually take a bit of time to mature. Okoye may be faced with large sums of money from rugby compared to an occasional big throw in an international money event, there is a lot of temptation out there for people with his natural attributes.
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Re: Throws

Postby Oleg » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm

I don't doubt that they will both be near or at the top in their careers but I think next year is too soon. I think Lawrence is closer than Hitchon as well and think he could be in the shout for medals next year - think Hitchon would need a while longer.
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Re: Throws

Postby bevone » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:17 pm

I think you are all playing up Lawrence and his rugby abilities and as far as I know he has not been offered any meaningful contract. I noticed he has been in the papers saying he may quit but this seems to me to be a come and get me call to athletics and maybe a precursor to an announcement that he may be changing his training regime. I have no doubt that both Sophie and Lol will be world champs one day and sooner rather than later. They need nurturing and I think both are in situations that have worked for them. The last thing they need is change but I read an article on T&F news people ridiculing his old style grip and basic technique - well he did a lot better than anything the US could muster - their javelin throwers threw 72-74m who supposedly had A standards so even their great athletes under perform!

I think that when all the dust settle after the games - I think the events need looking at. For eg. the distances bar one or two like Mo are not producing talent so somebody - maybe Crammie -forget the punditry - put your neck on the line and get involved as you have with one girl who has made final - what could you do if you were in charge of the whole squad - actually I think the man is more than capable of taking and inspiring our coaches and athletes to the higher levels. Jumps -who are doing well - in some areas - but who could lead them to a higher level? Someone like Fuzz Ahmed has been successful and is well liked and respected around the world. Throws - the only British coach I can think of who has consistently taken athletes to the top and is respected around the world and had a petition handed in to have him reinstated is John Trower. He has the gravitas and experience of building a team that will get the job done. Sprints/hurdles - why look further than Malcolm Arnold? These 4 are British tried and tested and could build a small team of coaches around them based in the regions to then take it to the masses. There are other names you could suggest, I am just thinking off the top of my head but I am sure there are enough people already within UKA and some not who could do a good job and between the create a performance and development strategy. We have some good athletes now who if fit can win medals, what we need is to look after them and then develop the next generations. More money to the bleasdales, Okoro, Morse, Doran, Asha Philips, Jodie, Grabarz, etc and less on admin/coaching as surely these are the people who need it.
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Re: Throws

Postby jjimbojames » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:20 pm

Bev - I'm confused. Are you advocating having centralised squads where athletes leave their current coach to work with the experts you mention?
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Re: Throws

Postby bevone » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:49 pm

'' These 4 are British tried and tested and could build a small team of coaches around them based in the regions to then take it to the masses''

No mention of centralistion at all - I mentioned event leads who overlook the events and work with the coaches from the regions and spread the word No mention of moving everyone to one of two centres, that is why I mentioned regions. I am all for several centres so Nurthumbrian athletes can access a regional centre near by and midland athletes do the same

Speaking totally hypothetically you could have a centre in N ireland , Wales, Scotland, Sheffiled, Loughborough, BAth, Eton/brunel, Lee valley, manchester, birmingham. There are S&C physio and support staff there all ready from UK or sport England so rather than wasting more money on your own staff you utilise them, and then that frees up money to employ a centre manager and maybe 3 or 4 coach advisors who monitor the coaches and athletes in there areas and act as a resource of the coaches, providing what they want or least being told what they want.

I reckon you could staff each centre with say 6 staff for £200k x 6 centres - (£1.2 million) plus a central staff (£800k) That is 2 million on your salaries -then you have other costs of renting facilities. £20-24million a year uka get - well that leaves alot in the pot for athletes, and extra coaching staff/consultants/specialisits to be brought in as well. or in other words more money to play with. Remember there is also England athletics and the regions and home countries out there providing the same service - there is so much duplicated services out there. Obviously my sums are crude and such small numbers is looking at a best case scenario - and there are other considerations as well!!
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Re: Throws

Postby jjimbojames » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:01 pm

bevone wrote:Crammie -forget the punditry - put your neck on the line and get involved as you have with one girl who has made final - what could you do if you were in charge of the whole squad

This was the bit that had me confused. Is Crammy taking a bunch of athletes or doing some sort of 'distance-mentoring' of coaches

And what happens if a lower level coach - or indeed the athlete - disagree? Is it a three line whip to follow the event lead in order to get funding? Reading between the lines, this seems to be the case with making teams for some :?
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Re: Throws

Postby Ursus » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:20 pm

SteveK26 wrote:
Next year both Hitchon and Okoye will be world champions. Thats my prediction.


Mine is that neither will be. Sophie is progressing very nicely, but is still a very long way off the top girls.

Lawrence is a monster, but harnessing that power isn't easy. It takes time to hone a technique that will stand up under pressure & Lawrence is still learning the event. He might, might, just catch one right when it counts next year, but my guess is a top 6 finish. I just get the vibe that his heart isn't really in it though.
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Re: Throws

Postby Damocles » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:00 pm

bevone wrote:Throws - the only British coach I can think of who has consistently taken athletes to the top and is respected around the world and had a petition handed in to have him reinstated is John Trower. He has the gravitas and experience of building a team that will get the job done.



What did Trower ever do for any event other than javelin? As I always ask, supply for evidence for making such a statement, as usual you probably won't? Looking at the ranking lists from when he was in charge of throws, the standards for everything except the javelin took a nosedive. When he moved to sprints!!!!! those very same events started to thrive. When he again returned to head the throws, down the non javelin throws went again. That evidence is there in black and white and is objective. So you appear to be asking for a failure to take over the throws. Javelin fine, but keep him away from the other throws, where, from looking again at history, he only gave jobs to those he didn't feel threatened by and were were chosen on nepotistic grounds. I believe it was a few javelin throwers who wanted him reinstated as a javelin coach. Can you supply the evidence that the other throws wanted him, or if anyone other than javelin throwers petitioned for him. Give the readers of this forum the facts for once, instead of using self important inuendo and misimformation.

Your statement is subjective and I await the proof for your argument ( I'm still awaiting answers to all those other posts of yours, for which I requested similar proof, which you lamentably failed to provide )?
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Re: Throws

Postby bevone » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:48 pm

damocles (Phil) unlike you I have been to major games, know plenty of the world's best throwers and coaches who rate JOhn above others as a javelin coach and as I was around since he joined as the junior and onto senior coach and coached / advised a host of international throwers from world record holders to all of out best javelin throwers. form Ottley, Backley Hill Sanderson, and coached Me Roberson Jenson Gibson etc at one stage or another and his help was widely and enthusiastically appreciated. The petition was not signed by most as we never got a chance to sign it but the current national coach Esa and world record holder Uwe Hohn I am told signed it along with Backley Hill various Finish coaches and I think Zelezny was on the list. The petition has over 30 people of note in throwing but many I know including me never saw it.

Pickering reluctantly accepted that a petition with 30 odd signatures had arrived at UKA including those names above but claimed some were duplicated but my name was not on it and many who said they would sign it said they had not either.

I have it from many that Jt did a good job sorting out the sprints. he has not been involved with the jav for many years in terms of remit.

Unless you can come up with a bunch of athletes better than that I suggest you argue about something else.There is much more I could say but I am not going to argue with an anonymous name tag about things I know much more about than you. Unless you have the guts to tell me who you are and then I will know. It takes a little man/woman to slag off people anonymously online so I have answered your inquiry and will cease to read any more drivel from you - I notice you didn't put up any alternatives.
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Re: Throws

Postby bevone » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:48 pm

damocles (Phil) unlike you I have been to major games, know plenty of the world's best throwers and coaches who rate JOhn above others as a javelin coach and as I was around since he joined as the junior and onto senior coach and coached / advised a host of international throwers from world record holders to all of out best javelin throwers. form Ottley, Backley Hill Sanderson, and coached Me Roberson Jenson Gibson etc at one stage or another and his help was widely and enthusiastically appreciated. The petition was not signed by most as we never got a chance to sign it but the current national coach Esa and world record holder Uwe Hohn I am told signed it along with Backley Hill various Finish coaches and I think Zelezny was on the list. The petition has over 30 people of note in throwing but many I know including me never saw it.

Pickering reluctantly accepted that a petition with 30 odd signatures had arrived at UKA including those names above but claimed some were duplicated but my name was not on it and many who said they would sign it said they had not either.

I have it from many that Jt did a good job sorting out the sprints. he has not been involved with the jav for many years in terms of remit.

Throws thriving -when was that then - the jav after my era finished has been disgraceful with sub 50 and sub70 winning national medals when he was not in charge of the jav. Non of the heavy throws have thrived except maybe discus which I have been a past of I might add - what about you?

Unless you can come up with a bunch of athletes better than that I suggest you argue about something else.There is much more I could say but I am not going to argue with an anonymous name tag about things I know much more about than you. Unless you have the guts to tell me who you are and then I will know. It takes a little man/woman to slag off people anonymously online so I have answered your inquiry and will cease to read any more drivel from you - I notice you didn't put up any alternatives.
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Re: Throws

Postby jeremy1 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:07 am

SteveK26 wrote:Performances have been a bit in and out in London.

But I wonder who, if anybody, will agree with this:

Next year both Hitchon and Okoye will be world champions. Thats my prediction.

Hitchons progress has been relentless since winning the world junior title, (and the world youth title). Only another 3 or 4 metres to go...
Okoye is a giant...he makes his rivals look small. All he needs to do now is harness the massive natural power he has. And he is learning, and gaining invaluable experience.


World Champions next year???? Suggest laying down with a cold compress for a few hours and you will feel so much better.

Not in a million years will either be World Champions.. and Flag Wavers disease wont help. She is apromising young woman but is currently about 6/7 metres behind the world elite and Okoye, if he stays in our sport, has several years to throw before his consistency of technique and results comes to fruition
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Re: Throws

Postby MikeWinch » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:31 am

Nigel, I have to agree with damocles. As a sufferer in those years, I can tell you support for the shot and discus was virtually zero and in fact we found it impossible to make progress because of an obstructive attitude... in the meantime the javelin throwers went on long training trips and had the best support available at the time.

BUT, this is all in the past... I don't think many would welcome a return from JT except perhaps working with the javelin only and having no say in anything else.

At this time we need unity and a general coming together of the events leaders to sort out a way forward. The current guys supposedly employed to do this basically haven't.

We need event squads, event specific support (med. Physio, Psychology, nutrition, biomechanics) , coach education with much more event content etc. etc. and less being told by the ignorant that they know best because they are employed by the sport.
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Re: Throws

Postby bevone » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:42 am

Thanks for that Mike. I am more than willing to listen to what you have to say as you have some gravitas and experience to bring to the debate.Unlike the anonymous damocles who seem to be my professional stalker and relative of someone who has a vested interest. I have said what I have said about JT from my experiences of him as a coach when he was the javelin lead and he was extremely popular and successful in that role. I can only talk from my experience and have to take you on your word about your problems with him although the trips I went on always had other throwers.

Regarding the training trips, I went on quite a few and they usually had all the throws with us but also in those days we had few 18m throwers and few 60m throwers in the discus etc. We are much better now (ie today) than then apart form javelin generally speaking.

I have put some names out there as examples but it is easy to criticize without making any suggestions.

I agree we need event squads and people willing to go to them because the right personnel lead them. our throws have been poor for far too long now and it is about time that something is done about it. The current people have not moved the throws on and the success story is confined to men's discus where different coaches have worked independently of each other with. Maybe there should be more mentoring than poaching! There is an English system at work as well not just UKA so what have they been doing for the throws?
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Re: Throws

Postby javman » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:16 am

Whilst I have no desire to start a JT bashing thread, my view is that as an event lead for javelin he fell well short of what was expected. Certainly in his latter years the squads were disorganised and lacked any structure or planning. He failed to bring the event on and we are suffering with that now. As a coach, he knows his stuff and is respected. That is where he must stay. To take an event forward you need an event lead, and that person needs to be a leader, not just a good bloke.
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Re: Throws

Postby tucker » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:09 am

I think we should have a thread rather than people arguing mybe u should start a thread that actually helps throwing in britain like all getting toghether and actually sorting out meet ups and throws squads and how as a hole we can improve giving each other ideas in all aspects of throwing. If u all have so much to give which im sure u do why dont u share it???? or is it easier to just keep living in the past rather than actually doing something about it.
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Re: Throws

Postby javman » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:34 am

Tucker, for example the UK Javelin Association is trying to do something. It is a slow process, it isnt perfect and will take time but at least it has development at its heart. The problem is getting people involved to help. Organisations such as the UKJA, Hammer Circle etc have a great place and can be used very effectively to help the sub elite development of each event.

The hammer circle for example have effectively supported Sophie Hitchin and Smithy, I understand. They helped to identify the talent, encourage it, support it and the fruits of their endeavour are starting to blossom. The UKJA are holding a 2 day Javelin Carnival this year with £5000 in monetary prizes and nordic javelins to the winners of each event. Why can't each throws grouping have a similar organisation that can help? Perhaps in time they will then gain more support from the NGB.

And finally, my frustration for the throws is that there are some really brilliant coaches out there. For some reason a significant few have become disengaged. I think it has been mentioned previously, a more collegiate approach would help. More support from the NGB would be required (why for example has the national javelin coach not been allowed to run national squad days and/or weekends). I really don't think that it takes much funding, but it does take time however.
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Re: Throws

Postby jjimbojames » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:38 am

Tucker - do you know where the money is coming from? Sounds like an excellent initiative and good to see people stepping up and doing something about an issue they're not happy with. Like you say - very easy for everyone to have their say, but a lot harder to get up and get the job done - even if things fail, it's a starting point to build on
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Re: Throws

Postby tucker » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:35 am

im not to sure on the funding as a hole apart from that unless u are right at the top of the game u get nothing. i as one try not to worry myself about something that wont come my way unless i get right to the top by myself. ive had to look for my own help which im in the process of sorting out funds to get to my main coach in kent from leeds area once a month. which will see my progress continue at a good rate.
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Re: Throws

Postby tucker » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:38 am

sounds good javman what the jav and hammer guys are doing would love to see something like a get toghether like that for shot and discus.
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Re: Throws

Postby jjimbojames » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:43 pm

javman wrote:Tucker, for example the UK Javelin Association is trying to do something. It is a slow process, it isnt perfect and will take time but at least it has development at its heart. The problem is getting people involved to help. Organisations such as the UKJA, Hammer Circle etc have a great place and can be used very effectively to help the sub elite development of each event.

The hammer circle for example have effectively supported Sophie Hitchin and Smithy, I understand. They helped to identify the talent, encourage it, support it and the fruits of their endeavour are starting to blossom. The UKJA are holding a 2 day Javelin Carnival this year with £5000 in monetary prizes and nordic javelins to the winners of each event. Why can't each throws grouping have a similar organisation that can help?

It's about time the throws had something like the BMC races to try and push things along - all credit to the organisers of this
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Re: Throws

Postby MikeWinch » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:03 am

Briefly......

Jamaica stars train as a squad...

Nike running club (Mo Farar) train as a squad....

The cyclists train as a squad....

So why has UKA prevented that happening in this country, despite major progress being made in the early noughties. Squads can be a major force for communication, competition, team building and event success and cross pollenation of ideas.

The reason I suspect is because they haven't a clue about what does and doesn't work because they do not come from our sport, or at least any reasonable level within it. They also want to divide and rule... a simple strategy to prevent criticism growing.
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Re: Throws

Postby jjimbojames » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:35 am

Mike - to be fair, those athletes have left their coach to move - something a lot of people on here are against (call it centralisation, squad, poaching - whatever, it basically attains to the same thing)

Are you saying you are happy for e.g. The top six discus throwers are told to train together under JT, following Lawrence's success. What happens if the athletes don't want to move?
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Re: Throws

Postby yorkshire_best » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:57 am

Perhaps if we had coaches squads instead and trained them up to be effective units around the country recieving back up via internet ,telephone, monthly workshops, and had a flying head coach to go around and service the needs of the many throws groups which would appear, bit like Wilf paish used to do. 8)

Such a way would make coaches feel confident that their athletes were safe from poachers, not only that but 50 good throws coachs around the country has to be better than one centralised group. We all know the technical shortcoming of a thrower can not be effectively overcome when in large groups not to mention the problems caused by the male ego :wink:
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Re: Throws

Postby MikeWinch » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:17 pm

Squads, to be effective need to be held once a month and at great facilities. Coaches and athletes should attend under the guidance of a head coach (national Event Coach) who is a specialist in the event, and with the best support services in tow. Event group squads (say the throws, or jumps) can also create a great and positive environment for discourse and learning, as well as a competitive training environment.

I am not in favour of moving everyone to one place as this detracts from family and home life for the athlete and coach, and only at the very top will it have a positive effect because at that level, the sport is a hundred percent commitment, so nothing should come in its way.
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Re: Throws

Postby jjimbojames » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:25 pm

MikeWinch wrote:Squads, to be effective need to be held once a month and at great facilities. Coaches and athletes should attend under the guidance of a head coach (national Event Coach) who is a specialist in the event, and with the best support services in tow. Event group squads (say the throws, or jumps) can also create a great and positive environment for discourse and learning, as well as a competitive training environment.

I am not in favour of moving everyone to one place as this detracts from family and home life for the athlete and coach, and only at the very top will it have a positive effect because at that level, the sport is a hundred percent commitment, so nothing should come in its way.

Mike - I hear what you are saying, but you cite cycling above - many of whom have spoken about how living together etc has been the extra. The Jamaicans have moved in order to be in either the Racers or MVP, as has Mo to be with Alberto.

If an athlete WANTED to move to a better (in their eyes at least) coach, what would be your views? Forget funding etc, just purely on the coaching side only
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Re: Throws

Postby MikeWinch » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:05 pm

Not a problem of course. But as I have ALWAYS said this should be done properly and without another coach initiating the doubt in the former, as has so often seemed to be the case.

The key I think is actually to take along the coaches with the athlete. So for example if an athlete has outgrown his or her coach, this should be discussed by the sport and the old an new coaches, and the situation explained properly. The old coach would then realise that they needed to upgrade and could be helped to do so by the sport itself. This is the 'seamless pathway for athlete and coach' which I strongly support, and can be a most effective way to ensure that the coach doesn't get lost and the athlete has the level of coaching to take them as far as they can possibly go, and hopefully to Olympic Gold.

I have taken many athletes on from other coaches, and I always make sure as far as possible that the previous coach is OK with it. If not I will not take them on.

On the issue of the centralised system at the elite level, I have no problem with that either as long as it is at the appropriate time in the athletes career. The problem we appear to have at the moment, that in the headlong rush to 'go for gold', athletes are being pushed into such a system, in my view far to early, and as an educator, I feel this can be very damaging in formative years. It is also unnecessary.
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Re: Throws

Postby jjimbojames » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:13 pm

Thanks for that. Your 3rd paragraph made for interesting reading - this was the crux of my question in the post above, really. SOME coaches won't let an athlete go (wanting the deflected glory), even when they can do no more for them - and it seems a shame to hold them back. I know of exactly a case of this at the moment, and it makes life difficult for the athlete when they respect and admire the coach that took the from ground zero to a good level, but want the next level of coaching to take them to the next level of performance
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Re: Throws

Postby MikeWinch » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:22 pm

jjimbo, there needs to be a sane and effective discussion between them all, and this is sometimes a problem as the athlete does not want any acrimony. There needs to be arbitrators or senior mentor coaches who can step into such situations when asked, and bring heads together.

Yet another thing for us to set up in the future I think.
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Re: Throws

Postby SteveK26 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:12 am

There are ego's at stake here, which makes things tricky.

Would it not be possible , sometimes , for the coach to discuss with the ''better qualified coach'' how to progress the athlete? That way he maintains his role, and maybe develops his skills at the same time. Everyone wins.
Or perhaps there would be a problem with this exchange of expertise?

Edit...PS that type of approach worked for Peter Coe, albeit track rather than throws.
I seem to remember he knew little about coaching when he started out with Seb.Didn't he read and soak up as much knowledge as he could, and then adapt it to his son's needs? A learning curve for both of them that worked out pretty well.
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