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What's Happened to our Sprinters?

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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby Athleteyes » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:28 pm

Thats a shame Kermit if Porter and Ennis are drafted in as thats two places/opportunities for other athletes gone.
Porter's 100m best is only 11.7 and Ennis is quicker but there are developing athletes and others that should go to Euros in the relay team.

Regarding the funding....UKA tend to put all eggs in one basket, the high jumpers have no funding either!
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby trevorp » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:38 pm

I know that some very good relay teams in the past (including a couple of British ones) have had sprint hurdlers on lead-off but Porter was tried in the relay last year and it wasn't a conspicuous success. Ennis might make a better fist of it but it's a sign of desperation that they've been mentioned.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby SteveK26 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:34 am

Womens 4x100

A medal challenge here has always depended upon the young blood bearing fruit and Kwakye back to full fitness.
If Williams, Phillip, Henry etc do not progress this year (for whatever reasons), and Kwakye misses London through another bitterly ill-timed injury, it wont really matter whether we enter a team or not. Since without these athletes at their best, having Ennis and Porter wont make any difference, we'll go out in the heats.

Footnote
Its been a great season so far with PB's and British records across many events. It would be an irony if some of the athletes who have been performing so well thus far end up over the top by August. And some of the athletes who are currently being critisized for lack of racing/or 'below par' performances to date end up being those who peak at the Games. For example Holly Bleasdale.

The sprinters in general may yet come good this year, and there is certainly a good crop of youngsters for the future. But realistically they offer no hope for medals in London excepting for relays.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby TheRealSub10 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:16 am

Kermit wrote:It is very disappointing to see that the sprints ((including 400m) where the most funding has gone) has the least depth in terms of fitness and A standards in the qualification period compared to the throws (which have had the least funding).
What does that tell you? A couple of hypothesis include that funding makes no difference to performance. Or more likely that basically athletics is in many ways a lottery as injuries and doping issues change the landscape of the sport at an international level dramatically from year to year. If you are lucky to be in shape and not injured when your main competition is injured you do well. After so many years watching this sport I've basically come to the conclusions that if you want to win an international medal be good (but not necessarily the best) and then don't get injured - eventually one year the chips will fall in your favour (Andy Turner, Jenny M, Dai Green, Leon B, Lisa D, Hannah England etc etc...)

On the first option (Funding has no correlation to success), I'm actually quite interested in the idea that funding CAUSES injury due to the fact people train harder because they feel they have a safety net (medical backup, which really can't help you if you get a stress fracture, shin splints, achilles tendonopathy, patella tendonopathy or one of the many injuries that result from not getting your training right). However, right now that doesn't seem to be the case with the female sprinters but it's one idea that goes around in my mind!
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby jeremy1 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:40 am

It does not help anyone that as soon as some promising talent hoves into view the media here, ably assisted by the OTT fans, start talking as if the athlete in question is a world class athlete.
It has happened for years with , for example, Williams and now Gemili fill sthe sports columns, interviews including those that should know better with the most ridiculous expectations. We had the same nonsense with MLF and HAA after their Junior triumphs and it did no one any good, least of all the athletes, that i can see.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby SteveK26 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:07 am

jeremy1 wrote:It does not help anyone that as soon as some promising talent hoves into view the media here, ably assisted by the OTT fans, start talking as if the athlete in question is a world class athlete.
It has happened for years with , for example, Williams and now Gemili fill sthe sports columns, interviews including those that should know better with the most ridiculous expectations. We had the same nonsense with MLF and HAA after their Junior triumphs and it did no one any good, least of all the athletes, that i can see.


Jeremy
I cant say I've noticed that the athletes you quote have ''filled the sports columns''.
Are you saying that a junior world champion should be ignored by the media?

Without media attention our sport would die; if we have someone as good as Jodie at her tender age it is going to be discussed. Quite rightly. I'm sure that Jodie and her team can handle the press and the expectations.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby bevone » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:27 am

I think what Jeremy is saying that we are quick to jump on to a bandwagon - the truth is that relay apart - MLF has not fuliflled his promise and I am struggling to think what HAA has won (as a senior)but they are not world beaters nor world class. Jodie has done well as a junior so far as did Ashia Philip, and Venicha James before them - athletes good as juniors but not made it as seniors yet (Jodie is still a junior). I think we should recognise the talent but keep it in perspective. We have a poor record of developing our short sprinters.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby Athleteyes » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:38 pm

I agree that funding doesnt correlate to successful performance and one of the reasons is coaching. I know many athletes that dont have full time medical back up or have/do work part time because they arent funded and still acheive great things because they do the correct training. If you have the correct training methods and correct recovery specifically for that athlete it doesnt matter if they have to work part time. Having to work full time is extremely hard if not impossible while training at a high level.

Of course a healthy athlete that is prepared and has done the right training combined with opportunity and a bit of luck is going to lead to success.

Realsub10, I totally disagree that funding causes injuy because the athletes train harder as they dont care if they get injured because they have medical backup! No athlete wants to be injured.

It is the training or not doing the correct training for that athlete that causes injury (not including accidents). Funding allows the athlete to have more time for training/recovery. If this time is used incorrectly its ultimately going to lead to injury. Athletes trust and follow their coaches and therapists advice/sessions and unfortunately this is not specific or correct for the athlete.
More isnt always better.

A lot of the sprints coaches in the UK have been lucky with the athletes they have been given. Young/new/developing or talented athletes that could do well off any training has been attributed to that coach. A good coach is one that can develop an athlete year on year.

Emphasis should be on getting good coaches in and improving coaches knowledge by learning off others. Unfortunately, the later is difficult as most coaches dont like to help each other as pride is associated to only their athletes doing well and dont wish other coaches to do well. I have heard and know of this as fact.

People dont really know how bad the problem of athletes trying to find a good coach or squad is in the UK.
Until we sort out the fundamental problem of coaching we will always have many underperforming or injured athletes unless of course athletes train abroad!
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby jeremy1 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:05 pm

Anybody that has not read the sports columns of the non red tops( I do not read the Sun or Mirror who think that sport = football) in the UK has either not read the awful sports Press and endless references to the athletes I named or is in denial; I must have read over the last couple of years at least 5 major coverings about the two young athletes I mentioned... but then certain people on this Board are contrarians of other posters ...automatically!!.
MLF for example as a Junior was endlessly touted as the next big thing in sprinting and apart from a good relay run has not justified and never will, imo, the OTT coverage about him on TV and the Press at the time or since.
Crikey even the self regarding Times loves nothing better than hyping up the youngsters rather than informing sports fans as to results... but to the UK press sport "personalities" are so much more important than achievements/results

The point I made has as usual here been missed .. not that the media should not mention a Junior Champion... not the point... its the automatic hanging honours and overdoing the praise, followed of course by the inevitable condemnations...

I will be watching Williams over the next two or three years and I aint going large on expectations.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby jeremy1 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:14 pm

And to add to my point just read the OTT cr ap about Gemili on the BBBC Sport website.. He hasnt done anything yet amongst the big boys... some twerp on the TFN MB in the States thinks Gemili has to learn what Bolt had to learn... pressure. :) Bolt was a phenomenon at 16 and Gemili is no Bolt by a mile .
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby djlovesyou » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:28 pm

Which specific part of that BBC article upsets you the most? I don't see anything wrong with it. They asked athletes their opinions on British sprinters and the athletes gave their answers.

Pretty standard and pretty harmless if you ask me. Nothing to get tearful about.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby richard1980 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:24 pm

Are we exluding 400m athletes and hurdlers from the umbrella title of sprinters? because we have excellent/world class individuals TBO,Dai Green, Sanders, Rooney, Turner 400 relay teams (and 4x1 teams).

These are sprinters in sprint events.

As an aside, I know Jodie Williams was/is a fab junior - but why there was so much hype around her, and why she was being compared to (and interviewed with Allyson Felix) was beyond me... She ran 22.7 at 17 this was very very good and would be competitive in a major championships- but why should anyone (and people did and do) take that to mean she will be running 21. something in a few years? too much pressure on her and her team i think.

Short Sprinters run as fast as their legs allow. Of course they improve technique and develop (Jamica and USA obviously have great development sytems), but they dont progress in the way other events do, you either have it or you dont. Jodie Wililams has 22.7. Perhaps thats 'all' she will have, and its no ones fault. We just havent had a star yet!
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby SteveK26 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:31 pm

I repeat my previous question .......whats wrong with media attention? Of course that will inevitably involve speculation about medals. And some newspapers cover the sport better than others,for sure.
But without a few column inches here and there about athletes, all you'll have to read on the back pages with your breakfast will be what Mr. Rooney and Co got up to at the night club last night!! God forbid.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby sidelined » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:16 pm

Of course the British media indulge in unwarranted hype and unnecessary demolition. It's up to young athletes to be aware of that, to treat it with suitable scepticism, and to deal with it as best they can.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby Kermit » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:36 pm

RealSub10 I understand you fully but the one thing that has been in my mind constantly are the words from Colin (Mindy) Jackson, it could actually be the last piece of constructive criticism he has publicly made! It came about when he tried to coach 2 Welshmen (with occasional assistance from Michael Johnson). Their flexibility was the worst he has ever seen and was probably the root cause of their injury plagued careers.

I really don't think that has changed much over the years, I still see some of our better (and lesser) known athletes with poor core, balance, stability and flexibility. They are bound to continue to get minor-major seasonal injuries be they on funding or not. And for this reason, Richar1980, I cannot agree with you that Sanders is in the excellent/world class category. It was testimony to Rooney's coach that they spotted a problem with his core stability in the months leading up to Beijing and made the required changes that got him to the Olympic final.

Agreed there was incredible hype about Jodie Williams last year. Partly due to the fact that she had one of the best winning streaks that was up there with Ed Moses. The hype wasn't just in the UK, it followed her to the World Juniors with the press and the media (not ours) constantly questioning her about the winning streak to the point that it was in her mind when she placed her tired body in the start line in the final of the 200m

Jeremy was right to question the hype that went on about her, this board was full of it last year almost demanding that she should be picked for the world championships and that "her studies can wait because it was a once in a lifetime opportunity that she shouldn't pass up". Funny that, are we not hearing the same thing about Gemili this year? Even CVC was getting in on the hype but Mackie and the Williams family stood firm and rightly so. There is no substitute for educational qualifications. In part I agree with the quote that came from TFN, Gemili has to learn what Bolt had to learn - in the World Juniors! Alyson Felix is raving about Jodie after training with her, she sees things in Jodie that was in her at that age and perhaps that is were the comparisons have come.

I remember the hype over Craig Pickering, that too was at fever pitch and because I was not a part of that hype I became public enemy number one not only on this board, but also in the eyes of Pickering himself. I questioned, the training, his balance, his symmetry, his size, the unfortunate tag of "the great white hope", the documentary (how many of them are still in the UK top 8 now) and yet Gerald Phiri was the one that broke away and is running closer to 9.9 than any of them!

A few days ago Wayne Rooney (not a fan of nightclubs, but more a fan of the quiet life) was asked a question about the difference between him and Alex Oxlande-Chamberlain and the other new recruits to the England set up. He answered "I was fast-tracked, didn't play for the under 18s or 21s, the others have had the grounding of going through the groups, most of them together". We are a nation of I want it fast I want it NOW, it is a culture that has left us with nothing.

Sidelined is spot on when he said the British media indulge in unwarranted hype and unnecessary demolition. It's up to young athletes to be aware of that, to treat it with suitable scepticism, and to deal with it as best they can.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby djlovesyou » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:28 pm

I still don't accept it was the right idea. I don't understand what would have happened in a negative sense should Jodie Williams have gone to the WCs last year.

It's not like she's a 16 year old amateur heavyweight boxer being thrown in against Olympic quality senior boxers.

It seems to be a modern coaching strategy to 'play the long game' in terms of championships, when really they should go if they qualify. I can't see how sending these young athletes to the championships if good enough can be anything other than positive.

When they're in the village, they can be shielded from the hype (which is miniscule compared to a young footballer, for example) so they don't really have to worry about that so much.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby Kermit » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:30 pm

You just don't get it DJ do you?

Jodie wanted an education first, this is why we have seen so little of her this year. She didn't want UKA funding with UKA telling her she needs to do this or she needs to do that. She didn't want to be told you are going to be trained by so & so, not your current coach. She didn't want to be told sod your education you have signed a contract to get £x and our sponsors want a pound of your flesh - she wants an education, she wants to go grow up around her family, not go to some far flung place in the world for up to a month without seeing her family.

Home sickness became an issue during the world junior championships. That kind of thing can lead to depression and worse, just ask Marcus Trescothick. Come to think of it the WC started at the time she was due to start her final year of A levels and she didn't want to fall behind
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby SteveK26 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:26 am

Kermit
Firstly I apologise with regard to my specific reference to Rooney...it was a generic point I was trying to make about the volume of football coverage compared to that of athletics. I know nothing whatsoever about Mr.Rooney or his habits.

The point I am making is that I think it can only be good to have the press writing posative things about young athletic talent in the UK. If that talent is not eventually fulfilled thats a shame but hardly the absolute fault of the media. World junior champions are going to be high profile, and its up to them and their team to deal with that as effectively as possible. Mike McFarlane has achieved that with Jodie Williams so far, and I applaud him for guiding her career so carefully to date. It will eventually pay rich dividends I hope.
When people make huge breakthroughs, like Bleasdale and Gemili for example, its going to get press coverage. Jack Green this year orchestrated his own 'hype' machine by making bold statements about what he might achieve this year.
The media coverage gets everyone talking and generates some interest in our sport....thats a good thing isn't it?

I've read far worse comments about athletes such as MLF on these boards than I've ever read in the press.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby djlovesyou » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:43 am

Kermit wrote:You just don't get it DJ do you?

Jodie wanted an education first, this is why we have seen so little of her this year. She didn't want UKA funding with UKA telling her she needs to do this or she needs to do that. She didn't want to be told you are going to be trained by so & so, not your current coach. She didn't want to be told sod your education you have signed a contract to get £x and our sponsors want a pound of your flesh - she wants an education, she wants to go grow up around her family, not go to some far flung place in the world for up to a month without seeing her family.

Home sickness became an issue during the world junior championships. That kind of thing can lead to depression and worse, just ask Marcus Trescothick. Come to think of it the WC started at the time she was due to start her final year of A levels and she didn't want to fall behind


I get it completely. All the funding issues are irrelevant - she could have gone to Daegu and still refused funding.

I'd be worried that she'll never be ready for a major championships if people are concerned about 'depression or worse' for a young athlete like that going away for a couple of weeks. It's not really comparable to cricket as they have to spend a large portion of the year away from home.

The education thing is just simple justification for the decision not to go. It's pretty clear that a couple of weeks away from home not during term time isn't going to affect her A-Levels in any way.

It was a coaching decision - and one I don't really agree with, but accept. It's all the melodramatic justification for the decision that I don't really care for. Young people are pretty resilient - I understand everyone is different but she's around the age where millions of young people spend weeks and months away from their families. Most cope fine.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby Kermit » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:08 am

No DJ you don't get it at all.

It was Jodie who wants the education, it wasn't a justification. It was Jodie who was homesick and while she is not doing a sport like Cricket depression manifests differently from person to person. It was NOT a coaching decision it was HER decision. Not all young people are resilient and she didn't feel comfortable being so far away from her family at that stage in her life. To do the world juniors and then the seniors could of caused more problems then I care to think of.

There was nothing melodramatic about HER decision. Not all sports people cope with a situation of being away from their families, even the England football team realise this and bring the players families over during tournaments. The England Cricket team also do the same and are now going one step further by actually not selecting players for certain tours and this includes the management.

Steve there is an saying "all publicity is good publicity"!
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby jeremy1 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:54 am

Thank you, Kermit, for your 7 paragraphs, six posts ago, with which I agree wholeheartedly and which reflect the truths of the situation.Hype sometimes bordering on hysteria is a distasteful element among sports fans in general, here and elsewhere in the world. How right you are about the OTT madness about young Jodie W.. and now Gemili, ...... not that considered rationalism is part of the currency of Message Boards. See the Soccer stuff !!

I feel genuinely sorry for those that cannot undertand the exaggerated rubbish/gob about our wonderful sport which the various sports editors of our national dailies persuade,cajole and insist that their track and field writers spew out. Even the journalists of the so called quality papers write some of the most egregious gob I have ever read... but their excuse is almost the same ...thats what the public want... I say b ugger the public who don't know and don't care about track and field... just give the man/woman in the street any stuff about Usain and that should suffice...
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby SteveK26 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:31 am

I find Jeremy's last post blinkered in the extreme.
I've been reading and watching athletics coverage for more years than I care to remember, and the vast majority of it is balanced and informative. You get the odd article which is distorted rubbish, but that usually is penned by a non track and field based journalist on an agenda of their own.
From Ian Wooldridge, though Jim Coote and all the great AW correspondents to name just a few....not to mention all the great TV journalists such as Coleman, Pickering, Greenberg, McWhirter etc etc...I have been enjoying their reports and passionate coverage for years.
I've no idea what papers you read, Jeremy, but they dont seem to be the same as mine. There are plenty of examples of interesting articles posted on these boards all the time, along with the odd terrible one or two. Why highlight the rubbish and try to make a case that it is representative of athletics coverage as a whole?
Dont agree with you...and despite your previous jibe, I am not in the habit of playing devils advocate just for the fun of it.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby jeremy1 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:40 am

My daily reads are the Times and the Telegraph; some of the articles in the Times track coverage I consider ill informed, factually wrong and obsessed with the fodder of the day, but I do not make a note of Broadbents stuff cos it aint worth it; if you don't agree with my comments about Kermit's excellent post which was the central part of my comments, so be it.!!

As far as the Brit sporting press is concerned, I do not go in for naivety, even whilst I greatly respected the late John Rhodda' of the Guardian. I think you know full well, or should know, that my comments were not directed to Coleman for whom fond memories persist :D
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby SteveK26 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:00 am

Jeremy
John Rhodda was indeed another dedicated reporter who added great value.
Maybe our views are not necessarily always opposed; I prefer to remember and enjoy the good stuff and try to ignore the obvious rubbish when I come across it.

There is an article posted on sportinglife.com today , allegedly by James Dasaolu , that suggests our male sprinters will soon be on the up and up. I hope he is right. I also believe that Jodie Williams has a massive talent that will one day come to fruition. But I dont expect too much this year from her....maybe something in the low 11. 0's if she gets good conditions somewhere. But highly unlikely she will medal in London if Kwakye is injured and Oyepitan opts out (of the relay).
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby TheRealSub10 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:58 am

Jodie has had 2 major injuries and A-Levels this year. I'm just glad she is running at all, thought this weekend will be tough for her psychologically. However, I'm sure she will make up for the disappointment in Athletics with some excellent grades, which ultimately are more important.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby usedtoit33 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:17 pm

What injuries has she had? I knew about the A levels obviously, her last exam was on Weds. The heat yesterday was only her second race of the season. She should be fine for good form by the Olympics. If she's healthy now and is up for it, I'd actually select her for the individual in Helsinki to allow her to get some races in, as she's there for the relay.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby Geoff » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:46 pm

usedtoit33 wrote:What injuries has she had? I knew about the A levels obviously, her last exam was on Weds. The heat yesterday was only her second race of the season. She should be fine for good form by the Olympics. If she's healthy now and is up for it, I'd actually select her for the individual in Helsinki to allow her to get some races in, as she's there for the relay.


I feel really sorry for her but it seems obvious now there has been a problem and I doubt she will make London.

I'm really pleased a fellow Potter, Ashleigh Nelson, won the women's 100m but overall we're a bit in the doldrums. What happened to Oyepitan?

As I have already posted the women's relay team is languishing in 15th place with only 16 qualifying for London. The Australians are 16th and run in the Oceanic Championships next week and the next three, Poland, Switzerland and Belgium, in the Euros. It's going to be close!
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby Ursus » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:23 pm

Geoff wrote:With less than a couple of weeks to the trials most of our sprinters are really struggling for form. There are a couple of obvious exceptions in Adam Gemili and Abi Oyepitan but what about the rest? Concentrating on the 100m we've only got two men and one woman with the UKA current 'A' standard with many others running really badly.

We all know there will be injuries. Some have exams. Some may be leaving their tapering very late. Bad weather and headwinds. Lots of possible excuses but I would have expected quicker times by more athletes at this stage.

Will our sprinters come good at the trials? Will the likes of Chambers, HAA, MLF etc get down towards 10 flat and will our young female sprinters get back to their best over the next few weeks?

What do others think about our sprinters? Will they come good?


This is how Geoff started this thread. In answer to his final point, the 100m men and women certainly haven't.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby Geoff » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:03 am

fangio wrote:OK, so times 10 days prior to the trials then in 2008

10.05 Chambers
10.06 Edgar
10.18 Aikines-Aryeetey
10.18 Devonish
10.25 Pickering
10.26 Baptiste
10.31 Fifton
10.32 Williamson
10.41 Scott
10.45 Yearwood

So even with the trials earlier this year I still think the stats stack up in favour fo the 2012 group.


Fangio, just wondering where we are at the moment post trials and 5 weeks before the Olympics? Do you agree, for whatever reasons and there are many, we are also having a pretty poor season on the women's side? Overall, the current situation is as bad as it's been in many years. There are a few bright lights with Gemili and Oyepitan but it's not good.
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Re: What's Happened to our Sprinters?

Postby Oleg » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:38 am

Just watched an interview on YouTube with Montell Douglass and she seemed to be trying to explain that because the trials were 3 weeks earlier than normal it made it harder for them all to get a qualifying time. For someone who is supposedly our British record holder (we all know how laughable that title is) she must be very badly advised or unfortunately not have a lot going on in her head. As Bev said earlier - surely you just change your plans and start 3/4 weeks earlier - seems very simple but having read through this thread it seems some very simple things are being overlooked.
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