Helsinki 2012 European Athletics Championships

[Kermit]

Strange to think it, but this Championship is almost like the forgotten championships. Well we will launch the build up with this exciting piece of news.

European Athletics is pleased to announce that it will stream live the Helsinki 2012 European Athletics Championships with English-language commentary.

http://www.european-athletics.org/europ ... ships.html

[Mr Me]

Are the bbc showing it? Its the last chance for anyone to get the A standard, so will be of some interest. Good practice for the relay teams aswell. Any of our big names even mentioned this? Terrible decision to hold this event in an olympic or worlds year, it takes away from the impact of a european title.

[Kermit]

Mr Me I am not sure of the BBC's intentions and to be honest with you I don't really care. They are like the Con-dems, it doesn't matter how many people complain about what and how they do things they will do it their way.

Over recent years they have received a barrage of complaints about the way they have presented our sport with too much chat and VTs while events are going on around them and yet they still persist. The complaints reached a crescendo this weekend surprisingly over their coverage of the Royal events.

As for the Championships being the last chance for getting the A standard for the games - that's not going to happen. Those selected for these championships will not be competing in the trials and will not be competing in London with the exception of the relay squads.

[Geoff]

I'm still unclear as to who will be selected. I know up to five may be nominated with three eventually going but will it be used as final decider, are we going to fill places in weaker events, will we have full strength relay teams and will athletes selected for the Olympics take part? First two in the trilas with 'A' standards won't go but does that apply to all events?

I sort of know what UKA has said but in many respects it seems rather wooly!

European Athletics are doing their best to 'big up' this meeting but surely it's going to be devoid of the very best athletes. I seem to remember the possibility that this may eventually become a qualifying meeting for the Olympics and I wonder, like in many sports, whether this will happen in the future? It's the only way it's going to be meaningful but that would be a major, major change for our sport and something many national governing bodies will want to resist. Of course, I mat have dreamt this or got the wrong end of the stick!

Having said all that I do know some of our athletes are appreciate a chance to compete in these championships as they know they will just miss out on the big one.

[sidelined]

Those selected for these championships will not be competing in the trials and will not be competing in London with the exception of the relay squads.

Kermit, are you sure that's right? Won't field athletes be going (if they want to)? Won't the trials determine who actually goes to the Euros on the track? I thought from reading the selection document that the plan in track events was to name five athletes (where possible) in the Euro squad and then withdraw those who get the top two positions in the trials.

[Notabot]

As for the Championships being the last chance for getting the A standard for the games - that's not going to happen. Those selected for these championships will not be competing in the trials and will not be competing in London with the exception of the relay squads.

Are you sure? The selection policy document seems to say something quite different:

Round 1
The Selection Panel will first select from those athletes that they consider:

• have a realistic chance of being nominated for the 2012 Olympics and for whom competing at the
  European Championships would be beneficial to their prospects of success at the 2012 Olympics, or
• have not yet met UKA’s Olympic nomination requirements and who have a realistic chance of being
  nominated for the 2012 Olympics.

Where there are more such athletes to consider than there are places available on the 2012 European
Championships team, the Selection Panel will select whatever combination of athletes for the 2012 European
Championships they believe will ultimately deliver success at the 2012 Olympics.

and also

Athletes may not miss the Olympic Trials and then compete at the European Championships
unless there is a valid medical reason which has been signed off by UKA’s Chief Medical Officer
(CMO). The CMO will consult with the Head Coach regarding this decision.

[Kermit]

What date was that edict published?

Let's look at this realistically, you are asking an athlete to peak for the trials (22nd - 24th June), maintain that peak for the Euros (27th June - 1st July) and then do it again for the Olympics (3rd - 12th Aug)? That is one hell of an ask.

[Notabot]

What date was that edict published?

The final version of the selection policy document has been available from the UKA website since November.

Let's look at this realistically, you are asking an athlete to peak for the trials (22nd - 24th June), maintain that peak for the Euros (27th June - 1st July) and then do it again for the Olympics (3rd - 12th Aug)? That is one hell of an ask.

They're not asked to do that. They're given the opportunity of achieving a qualifying time at the Euros if they, for whatever reason, don't get one at the trials.

[ultragirl]

With so much money floating around in athletics I would have thought we could have two good teams, one for the european championships and one for the Olympics.

[Kermit]

What date was that edict published?

The final version of the selection policy document has been available from the UKA website since November.

Let's look at this realistically, you are asking an athlete to peak for the trials (22nd - 24th June), maintain that peak for the Euros (27th June - 1st July) and then do it again for the Olympics (3rd - 12th Aug)? That is one hell of an ask.

They're not asked to do that. They're given the opportunity of achieving a qualifying time at the Euros if they, for whatever reason, don't get one at the trials.

Agreed Notabot, they are not asked to do that, but realistically they WILL have to do that. My understanding of the edict is more in line with what Geoff said and that came about after November and was posted at the time on these boards.

I still believe that the Euros should be used to blood those athletes who are bridging the gap between junior and senior levels preparing them for life in a holding camp in conditions closer to that of the Worlds and Olympics.

[fangio]

Kermit, I don't see what is wrong with that, the alternative is to tell them they don't get another opportunity to get the qualification standard. For those htat don't have it they can either try to maintain their peak to qualify, or decide they are not going to try.It's nto like they can go without the qualification standard.

[Kermit]

Believe me Fangio I understand that, but none of you seem to understand what I am trying to say, so let me spell it out.

An 800m runner would have to run 2 - 3 rds in the trials, 3 rds in the euros and another 2 rds just to make the Olympic final, all at high intensity. If that athlete has an injury doubt the chances of them making the Olympic final will diminish with each race.

[jjimbojames]

Believe me Fangio I understand that, but none of you seem to understand what I am trying to say, so let me spell it out.

An 800m runner would have to run 2 - 3 rds in the trials, 3 rds in the euros and another 2 rds just to make the Olympic final, all at high intensity. If that athlete has an injury doubt the chances of them making the Olympic final will diminish with each race.

I don't think anyone disagrees - it's just they're coming at this from a different angle: you are looking at it from an Oly finalist point of view, they are saying a qualifier - ie taking part in Euros as they e.g. finished top two in Trials behind an A, but only have a B - go to Euros, run an A, go to OG. For this person, it's about making the Games, not the final

[Notabot]

An 800m runner would have to run 2 - 3 rds in the trials, 3 rds in the euros and another 2 rds just to make the Olympic final, all at high intensity. If that athlete has an injury doubt the chances of them making the Olympic final will diminish with each race.

That's certainly not the ideal way to prepare, but only athletes who'd failed to qualify at the trials (or before) would ever be in that situation. And for them the alternative is not to go at all and then the chance of an Olympic final is zero.
The selection policy specifically states that athletes in events where there are heats and who qualify at the trials will be automatically removed from the team for the Euros.

In any case the only way to avoid having whoever is sent to the Euros treat it as the last chance saloon would be to either pick athletes with absolutely no hope of meeting the standard or to pick the team for the Olympics before the Euros start.

[Geoff]

Abi Oyepitan said tonight she was planning to run in the Euros. I'm still not clear on this as some who have the 'A' standard clearly won't be finalists in the Olympics but may even medal in the Euros and welcome that opportunity. There's going to be a lot of individual discussions!

[ultragirl]

Should all sprinters be capable of running in both of these meetings if they qualify for them, after all, we see people like Bolt and Powell running top times regularly and same goes for the hurdlers and 400m runners.

[Mr Me]

Should all sprinters be capable of running in both of these meetings if they qualify for them, after all, we see people like Bolt and Powell running top times regularly and same goes for the hurdlers and 400m runners.

With the diamond league you can fly in the day before and run a race that noone will remember in the long term. For a major championships there there are heats and holding camps etc. Perform badly and it can effect your confidence for the olympics. Running a few races before a major championship is fine and helpful, running in a major championship before a major championship is risky.

Having a European championships without the best in europe is pointless and ridiculous.

[SteveK26]

All this, of course, wouldn't be an issue if the powers that be hadn't decided to go bi-annual with the European Champs.

Which nobody else, it seems, really wanted.

[felix]

Should all sprinters be capable of running in both of these meetings if they qualify for them, after all, we see people like Bolt and Powell running top times regularly and same goes for the hurdlers and 400m runners.

With the diamond league you can fly in the day before and run a race that noone will remember in the long term. For a major championships there there are heats and holding camps etc. Perform badly and it can effect your confidence for the olympics. Running a few races before a major championship is fine and helpful, running in a major championship before a major championship is risky.

Having a European championships without the best in europe is pointless and ridiculous.

What about the Commonwealth Games, then? That was hardly top drawer in a lot of events ( no Jessica Ennis ) but it certainly did Louise Hazel a power of good.

[Rapunzel1975]

Should all sprinters be capable of running in both of these meetings if they qualify for them, after all, we see people like Bolt and Powell running top times regularly and same goes for the hurdlers and 400m runners.

With the diamond league you can fly in the day before and run a race that noone will remember in the long term. For a major championships there there are heats and holding camps etc. Perform badly and it can effect your confidence for the olympics. Running a few races before a major championship is fine and helpful, running in a major championship before a major championship is risky.

Having a European championships without the best in europe is pointless and ridiculous.

What about the Commonwealth Games, then? That was hardly top drawer in a lot of events ( no Jessica Ennis ) but it certainly did Louise Hazel a power of good.

Steve Lewis got a bit more attention after winning Bronze in Melbourne too.

[richard1980]

Defo think that people like Oyepitan, Mcconell and especially Ms Sanders would benefit from going to the europeans. U need races to get race fit. Especially as Oyepitan and Sanders Injury problems are seemingly being managed very well now.

[bevone]

i thought i read somewhere that events where they have multiple rounds to contend would not do both euro and olympic. As Kermit correctly indicated and 800m would run 2-3 races for the trials, 2-3 races for the europeans and 2-3-4 races for the Olympics, within a month - this is crazy to expect any improvement - the body would struggle to recover enough to continue to race so much and keep the highest standards. Same goes for the 400 and the 200/100. Oyr trck team esp will get meals at the euro but could be at a price of lesser Olympic performances. Some of the hopeful medals we had wished for are steadily unwinding and there are only a few athletes looking like the could achieve olympic medals at present.

[ultragirl]

I think the likes of Coe, Crammy, Ovett et al would take this in their stride, 2 meets in a month because they were good enough to, unlike the current crop of MD runners. I have always catagorised athletes into 3 sections, the are's 1.42s to 1.44s, the wannnabees 1.44s to 1.46s, and the I'm gonna bees 1.46/7s, the first section could cope with this challenge, the second group which includes all our runners might manage it, not so the third group.

[jjimbojames]

I think the likes of Coe, Crammy, Ovett et al would take this in their stride, 2 meets in a month because they were good enough to, unlike the current crop of MD runners. I have always catagorised athletes into 3 sections, the are's 1.42s to 1.44s, the wannnabees 1.44s to 1.46s, and the I'm gonna bees 1.46/7s, the first section could cope with this challenge, the second group which includes all our runners might manage it, not so the third group.

Have you ANYTHING positive to say?

[fangio]

I find it hard view Ovett as an example of someone who did multiple rounds of 800m running in major comps in quick succession to a level that teh current crop could not manage.

The 1980 Olympic gold was against a field that included only 3 athletes who had broken 1.44 at any point in their career up to that race, as opposed to Beijing where 7 athetles had that time just that year. Ovett's first round victory was in 1.49.4, with the slowest qualifer being 1.50.4, his semi was 1.46.6, with the slowest qualifer 1.47.3 and the final had the bronze won in 1.46.0. If you compare that to Beijing it's easy to see that the rounds were simply much easier than they are today.

Of course he is being cited as an example of an athlete who did major comps close together, well this is to counter the argument that the Trials, Euros and Olympics in quick succession, with rounds, is difficult to do. It is therefore interesting to note that not only was there no Euro's that year, but Ovett did not take part in the trials (neither did Coe). The Olympics were his only event with rounds.

People look back with rose tinted spectacles, butour current crop get little recognisiton for doing very well. Osagie for exmaple already has a second best time better than Ovett's and h is only 24. Ovett has 2 runs under 1.45, much fewer than Rimmer. To win Olympic title they would have to far exceed the perfomance of Ovett in 1980.

[ultragirl]

I do not wear UKA rose tinted spectacles and I do not go to extrodianary lengths to try and belittle another posters opinion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Ovett

Middle distance domination with Coe

Ovett arrived at the 1980 Moscow Olympics as favourite to take the 1500 m title, unbeaten over the 1500 m and mile for three years.[5] Earlier that month, he had established a new mile world record of 3:48.8 and two weeks later equalled Sebastian Coe's world record of 3:32.1 in the 1500 m. The Moscow Olympics marked only the second time that Ovett and Coe had met each other in international competition (the first being the 800 m in the 1978 European Championships) and there was huge media speculation over which would emerge as the greater.

Ovett's participation in the 800 m would serve as a test for the 1500 m. In the 800 m final, Ovett was only in sixth place at the halfway mark, but pushed his way through the crowd to second place. Seventy metres from the finish, he shot into the lead and held off Coe to win by three metres.[5] In the 1500 m, contested six days later, Coe won and Ovett had to settle for third place. More specifically, Ovett ran behind Coe's shoulder for quite a long time, but on the final bend he fell two metres behind Coe and could not get closer to Coe anymore. East Germany's Jürgen Straub, who had accelerated after 800 metres, held off Ovett for the silver medal.[1]

Though in 1980 Ovett had tied Coe's 1500 m world record of 3:32.1, new timing rules would come into effect in 1981, which would recognise records over 400 m to the hundredth of a second. This would have the effect of giving Coe sole possession of the record, as Coe ran 3:32.03 to Ovett's 3:32.09. However, Ovett avoided this unusual removal of a record via rule change by setting a new record later in 1980 of 3:31.36.

During 1981, both Ovett and Coe were at their peak. They didn't meet in a race that year but exchanged world records in the mile three times during a 10-day period. Ovett suffered a famous upset in a 1500m race in Oslo that year. With Ovett and Coe so dominant and Coe not involved in the race, Ovett was hot favourite. During the race Tom Byers, who had been asked to act as a pacemaker set off quickly and the pack, mishearing the split times being announced and believing that they were going faster than they were, declined to follow his pace. As a result, by the start of the last lap Byers was leading by almost ten seconds and decided to finish the race. Ovett ran the last lap almost nine seconds quicker than Byers but finished second by 0.53s, later commenting "We ran like a load of hacks."[6]

Ovett's 1982 season was wrecked by injury. When out training on the streets of Brighton in late 1981, he ran into some railings and badly twisted his knee.[5] He had recovered by the spring of 1982, but further injuries hampered his progress.

[fangio]

The fact remains Ovett did nto run multiple events with rounds that year prior to the 800m at the Olympics. At the Olympics he ran much easier roudns than the current crop, against much poorer opposition. As such I don't see how he is an example of someone who woudl have managed the trials, Europeans and Olympics with rounds in quick succession.

He was a great runner, but the evidence is not there that he would have maneged those three events, and a much tougher Olympic 800m rounds and final. That was what was being discussed, sorry if you took my analysing his perfomance in relation to that specific circumstance as some sort of belittling.

[trickstat]

I think the likes of Coe, Crammy, Ovett et al would take this in their stride, 2 meets in a month because they were good enough to, unlike the current crop of MD runners.

In 1978 Coe and Ovett didn't do the Commonwealth Games in Edmonton that took place shortly before the Europeans in Prague (I think there was just over 2 weeks between the end of one and the start of the other). As it turned out a large number of the British athletes who'd done well in Edmonton had a disappointing time in Prague. Ovett won the 1500m for which he was the clear favourite as he was the World number 1 at the time. He came second in the 800m beating Coe who'd lead at the bell in (I think) just under 49 seconds! [The winner was the GDR's Olaf Beyer, who outside of that race was merely a respectable international-class performer. ]

[Geoff]

The team should be announced later today but could involve not just three names per event but an additional two because of questions over competing in rounds in Birmingham and then in the Europeans. Let's wait to see how that pans out!

Some teams have been selected following their national championships last weekend. The French team includes Lemaitre and Arron:

http://www.athle.fr/asp.net/main.html/h ... tmlid=4077

Slovenia have announced their team and guess who's in the women's 4x100 relay........?

[Geoff]

Well, that was a bit quicker than I thoughtit was going to be! GB Team for Helsinki:

Men

100m: Harry Aikines Aryeetey; Dwain Chambers, James Dasaolu, Richard Kilty, Mark Lewis-Francis

200m: James Alaka; Chris Clarke, James Ellington, Christian Malcolm, Danny Talbot

400m: Richard Buck, Luke Lennon Ford, Nigel Levine, Rob Tobin, Conrad Williams

800m: Mukhtar Mohammed, Andrew Osagie, Michael Rimmer, Gareth Warburton

1500m: Andy Baddeley, James Brewer, Tom Lancashire, Ross Murray, James Shane

5000m: Mo Farah, Rory Fraser, Mitch Goose, Nick McCormick

10,000m: Keith Gerrard, James Walsh

3000m SC: Luke Gunn, Rob Mullett, Stuart Stokes, James Wilkinson

110m H: Richard Alleyne, Lawrence Clarke, Gianni Frankis, Andrew Pozzi, William Sharman

400m H: Jack Green, Ben Sumner, Rhys Williams, Nathan Woodward, Rick Yates

High Jump: Martyn Bernard, Robbie Grabarz, Samson Oni, Tom Parsons

Pole Vault: Luke Cutts, Max Eaves, Andrew Sutcliffe

Long Jump: JJ Jegede, Julian Reid, Chris Tomlinson

Triple Jump: Larry Achike

Shot Put: Carl Myerscough

Discus Throw: Abdul Buhari, Brett Morse, Carl Myerscough, Lawrence Okoye

Hammer Throw: Mark Dry

Decathlon: Ashley Bryant

4x100m: Aikines Aryeetey, Chambers, Kilty, Tyrone Edgar, Ellington, Malcolm, Talbot

4x400m: Buck, Michael Bingham, Lennon Ford, Levine, Tobin, Williams

Women

100m: Montell Douglas, Jeanette Kwakye, Ashleigh Nelson, Anyika Onuora, Abi Oyepitan

200m: Onuora, Oyepitan, Jodie Williams

400m: Shana Cox, Lee McConnell, Kelly Massey, Marilyn Okoro, Nicola Sanders

800m: Emma Jackson, Jenny Meadows, Okoro, Lynsey Sharp, Jemma Simpson

1500m: Lisa Dobriskey, Jemma Simpson, Charlene Thomas, Steph Twell, Laura Weightman

5000m: Julia Bleasdale, Helen Clitheroe, Twell

10,000m: Jo Pavey, Charlotte Purdue, Gemma Steel, Sarah Waldron

3000m SC: Hatti Archer, Eilish McColgan

100m H: Tiffany Porter

400m H: Meghan Beesley

High Jump: Isobel Pooley

Pole Vault: Kate Dennison, Sally Peake

Long Jump: Abigail Irozuru, Shara Proctor

Triple Jump: Yamile Aldama

Shot Put: Eden Francis

Discus Throw: Francis, Jade Nicholls

Hammer Throw: Sophie Hitchon, Sarah Holt

Javelin Throw: Goldie Sayers, Laura Whittingham

Heptathlon: Louise Hazel

4x100m: Douglas, Hayley Jones, Kwakye, Nelson, Onuora, Williams

4x400m: Eilidh Child, Cox, Massey, McConnell, Christine Ohuruogu, Sanders