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Indian Drug Ban x 7

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Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby kingmaker » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:34 pm

7 top indian female athletes banned:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/spor ... 219182.cms
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby iain » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:18 pm

If the coach has been found to be the wrongdoer, why are the athletes being punished? Especially as the coach was appointed by the federation not the athletes.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby kingmaker » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:35 pm

Err that may be because its the athletes ultimate responsibility as to what goes in their bodies. Sure its called strict liability
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby paps83 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:39 pm

Surely part of the rational behind bans is having a period during which the athlete loses the benefit they gained from the substance - hence the strict liability policy. Then there's the punitive element as well.

Obviously there's a debate to be had about whether an athlete ever loses the full benefit or not...
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby javman » Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:06 am

Papa, there in lies the problem as you don't really loose the benefit of taking the drugs.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby paps83 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:56 pm

javman - personally I agree, but unfortunately I don't write the rules!
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby shivfan » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:57 pm

Does that mean that India will be stripped of their CWG gold in the women's mile relay?
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby trickstat » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:27 pm

javman wrote:Papa, there in lies the problem as you don't really loose the benefit of taking the drugs.


I think that may be the case for steroids but not substances like EPO and stimulants.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby trickstat » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:41 pm

shivfan wrote:Does that mean that India will be stripped of their CWG gold in the women's mile relay?


No.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby mump boy » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:45 pm

shivfan wrote:Does that mean that India will be stripped of their CWG gold in the women's mile relay?


No
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby rembradt » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:17 am

Th Times of India article quoting sources and comment from officialdom etc indicates dishonesty and excuse making by and on behalf of Indian women athletes who knew clearly what the stimulants they swallowed were meant to achieve, and some of these cheats may yet turn up in London next year, if the dates quoted are correct. But then the Indians have once again demonstrated they are utterly corrupt at every level you can name.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby readtherules » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:31 am

rembradt wrote:Th Times of India article quoting sources and comment from officialdom etc indicates dishonesty and excuse making by and on behalf of Indian women athletes who knew clearly what the stimulants they swallowed were meant to achieve, and some of these cheats may yet turn up in London next year, if the dates quoted are correct. But then the Indians have once again demonstrated they are utterly corrupt at every level you can name.


Please make clear what you rely on in the article to say that the athletes knew what they were taking.
The ban of 12 months means they were not cheats.

Can the statos give some indication of the behefit of the coaches regime please ?
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby djlovesyou » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:40 am

You supporting a few more drug cheats?
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby readtherules » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:09 pm

No.The decision was, for those that got 12 mths, they did not cheat.

Do you have better info than the tribunal ? If so kindly present it.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby trickstat » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:54 pm

Try not to give the resident troll something to chew on! :roll:
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby readtherules » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:43 pm

Trickstat.

It was rembrant that got it wrong;would you prefer false info to go unchallenged ?

WADA has huge problems as the rules are illogical.They cause a min of .3 billion pounds to be spent and cant get the clever dopers.Yet the main stories in the press are about drugs in esp our sport.WADA will die but may well kill our sport first.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby trickstat » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:18 pm

readtherules wrote:Trickstat.

It was rembrant that got it wrong;would you prefer false info to go unchallenged ?



Of course not. Nor did I in any way suggest that I would want that! :roll:
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby LiamRiley » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:43 pm

rembradt wrote:Th Times of India article quoting sources and comment from officialdom etc indicates dishonesty and excuse making by and on behalf of Indian women athletes who knew clearly what the stimulants they swallowed were meant to achieve, and some of these cheats may yet turn up in London next year, if the dates quoted are correct. But then the Indians have once again demonstrated they are utterly corrupt at every level you can name.

A touch excessive to declare a whole people corrupt, but yes they haven't had a good press lately. It is very easy for doping to flourish where there is poor national oversight of sport. Still, it might be more polite to be more restrained in your invective when your contributions are almost certainly made possible through a technology part-created, designed and manufactured by the people you so malign.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby BigGut » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:06 pm

Are they saying that they asked the coach what he was giving them and he lied to them. Any other scenario and they should all get 2 years. The rules don't say that your responsibility is absolved by being ignorant.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby readtherules » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:56 am

Seems to be so as it would have been 2 yrs or even 4 yrs as conspiracy etc.

However there have been many cases of athlete getting told by tribunal that they must not trust label etc and should have contacted manufacturer and experts in doping as as they did not then full force of law is applied.

All part of this mad illogical world of doping control.

Can I ask,again, the statos to give some indication of progress of the female 400 runners.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby rembradt » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:10 am

well my comments did not in any way mean to malign every single Indian person and you know that full well.

I have met so many Indians over the years who tell me that life in India is governed by palm greasing, a corrupt central and local government administration, awful political shenanigans, a nasty judiciary, and a culture which no way discourages honesty and straight dealing. If the way of life is to live by the imposed and inherited standards not just in India , but the Middle East then I think it not unreasonable to acknowledge that, but I also know that India is a very God worshipping, spiritual nation( another generalisation) Some great, courageous women exist in India and fight the misogynist culture , especially in the rural areas.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby trickstat » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:53 pm

readtherules wrote:Can I ask,again, the statos to give some indication of progress of the female 400 runners.



What's that got to do with the price of fish?
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby readtherules » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:07 pm

trickstat wrote:
readtherules wrote:Can I ask,again, the statos to give some indication of progress of the female 400 runners.



What's that got to do with the price of fish?


Having a mind that likes to understand matters it occurs to me that we have a bit of an experiment here.
Nation with no 400 m history ,drug use, and then improvement .May even shed light on the DDR history and how good our girls would have been if they had taken drugs.

Surely even you would find the quantification of drug use of interest.Better than rumour and guesswork would you not think.After all it is an athletics site and not a fishmarket .
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby BigGut » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:35 pm

RTR,

You cannot compare India in 2011 to Communist East Germany. Seriously the science, motivation, culture and world situation is so diferent it is really completely irrelevant. The East Germans wanted to succeed at sport to show the dominance of the communist state. It was set against a backdrop where testing was frankly incapable of catching anyone, with a female population that had already been emancipated for 3 decades due to the needs of war. Indian success is as likely to be with a societal change allowing it's truly huge population of women to be able to compete. Undoubtedly in this case there has been something naughty going on, but I cannot see how anyone could accuse them of setting up a governemnt scheme accross all sports to deliberately cheat their way to the top of the World rankings in as many sports as possible.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby TheRealSub10 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:08 pm

I doubt it is a state sanctioned program. Steroids are freely available in most gyms in India and used by a lot of gym users. I'm not sure what the legislation is like but i know a lot of people use them even those training recreationally.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby trickstat » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:57 pm

readtherules wrote:
trickstat wrote:
readtherules wrote:Can I ask,again, the statos to give some indication of progress of the female 400 runners.



What's that got to do with the price of fish?


Having a mind that likes to understand matters it occurs to me that we have a bit of an experiment here.
Nation with no 400 m history ,drug use, and then improvement .May even shed light on the DDR history and how good our girls would have been if they had taken drugs.

Surely even you would find the quantification of drug use of interest.Better than rumour and guesswork would you not think.After all it is an athletics site and not a fishmarket .


In Asian, if perhaps not World, terms, India does have some history in Women's 400m running. For instance, they have won the 4x400 in the quadrennial Asian Games in 1986, 2002, 2006 and 2010, and at the biennial (but occasionally changing between odd and even years!) Asian Champs in 1985, 1987, 1989, 1991, 2000, 2002, 2005 and 2007. They were also finalists in the 2004 Olympics. At least some of those teams from the 80s would have featured P.T. Usha who was 4th in the 400m Hurdles at the '84 LA Olympics. Going further back on the men's side, there was Milkha Singh, who won the 1958 Empire/Commonwealth Games 440y title and was 4th in the 1960 Olympics.
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Re: Indian Drug Ban x 7

Postby readtherules » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:12 am

Goods points;but do you have the stats for the matter at hand.
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