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SPOTY

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Re: SPOTY

Postby djlovesyou » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:50 pm

rembradt wrote:Fine leader for the team. I don't buy it.!! Cav was largely a follower NOT a leader; he led over the last 200 metres on the Stages in the Tour that did not demand the gut wrenching stuff in the Alps etc, and in the time trials he was ordinary; clever marketing certainly got him some good public reaction.
How many of the great British public know anything about Le Maillot Vert...few I am certain. I think the reference to him as a great cyclist is a vast exaggeration. His win in the road Race Worlds was entirely down to the team and he had the good grace to acknowledge it.
Please dont let your judgement be clouded by the SPOTY nonsense. As for the paean of praise for Lance Armstrong... he is rightly regarded as a crummy cheat in many quarters, if not on this Forum.


But all team leaders are 'largely followers'.

Of course he's a fine leader of the team. They have him in the team to win stages and the green jersey. (I appreciate you understand what a team leader is in terms of a cycling team, yes?)

He never said that his win at the RRWC was 'entirely due to the team', he said that their help was invaluable and vital to his victory. Essentially, you don't win the RRWC without a great team, but a team doesn't win the RRWC without a great rider.

I didn't praise Lance Armstrong, you might what to re-read that. I just said that his wins were largely due to having a team of potential GC men setting a killer pace on every mountain in order to neutralise the field. In terms of achievements, and not worrying about how it was done, you would be full of praise of Lance. But could he have done anywhere near as much without Heras, Popo, Levi, Hincapie, Chechu, etc? That's without mentioning Bruyneel and Ferrari.

As for SPOTY being down to campaigns, etc, I fully agree. It doesn't change the fact that Cavendish deserves to win. Had Mo won, I would have said the same about him too. Both would have been deserving winners, probably along with the golfers too.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby trickstat » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:16 pm

Anybody who's seen the view from the helicopter of the finish of the final stage of this year's Tour of Britain in London will realise that Mark Cavendish's speed in a sprint finish is exceptional.


Go to 6:46 and he's in 5th and doesn't look that close. Probably less than 10 seconds later he's leading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b8wNzD-h1w


I know the field here obviously isn't likely to be as loaded as the World Champs but mighty impressive nevertheless.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby sidelined » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:14 pm

Apparently the audience for SPOTY dropped to 4.2 million this year - but maybe that's because it was on a Thursday, up against the football, and not on a Sunday. Time for a re-think, I reckon.

I wonder what it will take to win it next year? One Olympic gold isn't going to be enough, so if GB medal hopes come good, it could be Ben Ainslie for a life-time achievement award because that would be his fourth (plus a silver), or Victoria Pendleton, who has three shots, or Rebecca Adlington who will have three or four (if they qualify, of course). (I don't even want to mention athletes, because of my primitive superstitions...)
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Ursus » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:03 pm

Kermit wrote:There were a few history makers on the list this year, none better than Luke Donald.


He made history due to consistency & earnings, but he won't be in with a chance of winning unless he lands a major. Same for Murray.

Kermit wrote:He achieved an extraordinary feat, but because he didn't have a campaign team he did very poor in the votes considering runner up was ..... a golfer.


But the runner up DID have a major - against the odds -, does have a personality, and people also remember his wife's tragic death. If I was a major golf nut I would also have voted for McIlroy over Donald.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby rembradt » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:23 pm

and the number of people voting dropped from nearly half a million to half that approximately. Assume that the women numbered less voters and many males who were not too happy about the whole programme and voting farce did not bother either.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby camerajuan » Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:37 am

Biggest problem with this award is this.

The winner dropped out of the biggest race of the year and then won the world title.

This is the equivalent of Mo dropping out of the 10k after 20 laps and winning the 5k.This of course, didn't happen. But I lay down my salary and say if Cavendish hadn't won so many stages & came 2nd in the TDF, he probably wouldn't have won SPOTY.

Mo Farah was absolutely robbed. The man is a dynamo, a genius, a pleasure to watch, talk to and listen to.

I haven't got a clue why Darren Clarke was there and as for the rest who finished above Dai Greene, our country doesn't know what achievement means. Joke.

2012 = Olympic Year = No footballer/golfer/darts player/cricketer/rugby player/jockey/snooker player "should" be on the list. OG Gold winners have topped the list for the previous 3 Olympic years. Interestingly enough, T&F athletes have won more in non-Olympic years than they have IN Olympic Years, so stats say Farah had better shout this year than next.

Provisional list for next year(Olympians and Otherwise as its a formality due to how things work in this country).....

Sir Chris Hoy
Jessica Ennis
Mo Farah
Andy Murray(if he wins ANY major, it'll be the worst year to win it unless he performs well at Olympics).
Amir Khan(Needs to fight Mayweather before Floyd retires again).
Al Brownlee(Where was he this year??? Joke).
David Beckham(if he makes a good pass in the first round the country will implode with ecstasy).
Zoe Smith
Rebecca Adlington
Whoever scores a goal at the Euro Footy champs for England/The keeper if he saves any shot from anyone.

Merry Christmas. Everyone. :D
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Re: SPOTY

Postby rembradt » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:59 am

Good for Cavendish that the organisers hit upon a clever marketing ruse with the winners each day getting points, and eventually over the years the Green jersey became of signifance to Tour fans; for me what matters is the race in total with speed , strength and endurance and most of the Tour fans I speak to rightly,imo, regard the Tour as really taking off when the mountain stages begin and now the Time Trials are often of vital importance; Cavendish is a fine sprinter , one of the very best ever and has great positional nous, but to me he is not a great cyclist compared to a number of great overall riders. Sorry chaps.!!
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Re: SPOTY

Postby trickstat » Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:23 pm

camerajuan wrote:Biggest problem with this award is this.

The winner dropped out of the biggest race of the year and then won the world title.

This is the equivalent of Mo dropping out of the 10k after 20 laps and winning the 5k.This of course, didn't happen. But I lay down my salary and say if Cavendish hadn't won so many stages & came 2nd in the TDF, he probably wouldn't have won SPOTY.

Mo Farah was absolutely robbed. The man is a dynamo, a genius, a pleasure to watch, talk to and listen to.

I haven't got a clue why Darren Clarke was there and as for the rest who finished above Dai Greene, our country doesn't know what achievement means. Joke.

2012 = Olympic Year = No footballer/golfer/darts player/cricketer/rugby player/jockey/snooker player "should" be on the list. OG Gold winners have topped the list for the previous 3 Olympic years. Interestingly enough, T&F athletes have won more in non-Olympic years than they have IN Olympic Years, so stats say Farah had better shout this year than next.

Provisional list for next year(Olympians and Otherwise as its a formality due to how things work in this country).....

Sir Chris Hoy
Jessica Ennis
Mo Farah
Andy Murray(if he wins ANY major, it'll be the worst year to win it unless he performs well at Olympics).
Amir Khan(Needs to fight Mayweather before Floyd retires again).
Al Brownlee(Where was he this year??? Joke).
David Beckham(if he makes a good pass in the first round the country will implode with ecstasy).
Zoe Smith
Rebecca Adlington
Whoever scores a goal at the Euro Footy champs for England/The keeper if he saves any shot from anyone.

Merry Christmas. Everyone. :D


If Cavendish had dropped out of the tour he wouldn't have won the green jersey! I think he incurred penalty points by being over a time limit on a mountain stage. I know there used to be a time limit which, if you missed it, meant you were excluded from the tour. I'm not sure if this still applies. I know it used to be the case that sprinters would have to avoid this to have a chance of the green jersey.

I think England will have to win the Euros or be unlucky not to, for footballers to feature much next year. Is Zoe Smith good enough yet to be a contender?
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Kermit » Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:50 pm

Can't see Khan fighting Mayweather in 2012. First of all he wants to regain the belts he lost/got robbed of. Secondly Mayweather is about to start a 90 day prison sentence for beating his former girlfriend. And finally there is now a date & venue for the Mayweather/Pacman fight that only requires the two fighters to sign the contract - Saturday May 5th, a date I knew about in the week leading up to the Pacman's last fight!

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and compliments of the season to one and all.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Ursus » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:02 pm

trickstat wrote:I think he incurred penalty points by being over a time limit on a mountain stage. I know there used to be a time limit which, if you missed it, meant you were excluded from the tour. I'm not sure if this still applies.


It does, but more often honoured in the breach. The day Cav was outside the limit, so were about 70 other riders who all came in together, knowing full well that the organisers wouldn't dare chuck them all off.

Cav was always going to win the green jersey one day, but his greater achievement was winning the world title, which a bit like a running race is all about who can get from A to B quickest on the day. Yes it was a team effort, but how many track / road titles have been delivered by Ethiopian / Kenyan "teams" working for the benefit of one of their number?

Anyway, this year is done and next year's winner will be Fabio Capello for leading England to euro glory. On the off chance that doesn't happen, it will be a gb olympic winner. Any track or field athlete will have to be in with a great shout.

Enjoy the rest of your Christmas everyone.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby trickstat » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:17 am

Ursus wrote:Anyway, this year is done and next year's winner will be Fabio Capello for leading England to euro glory.


Nice one! :lol:
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Re: SPOTY

Postby camerajuan » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:19 am

Ursus wrote:Anyway, this year is done and next year's winner will be Fabio Capello for leading England to euro glory.


Aye good one.

Heard Usain Bolt has a Scottish Granny as well, 2014.............;)
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Re: SPOTY

Postby djlovesyou » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:44 am

rembradt wrote:Good for Cavendish that the organisers hit upon a clever marketing ruse with the winners each day getting points, and eventually over the years the Green jersey became of signifance to Tour fans; for me what matters is the race in total with speed , strength and endurance and most of the Tour fans I speak to rightly,imo, regard the Tour as really taking off when the mountain stages begin and now the Time Trials are often of vital importance; Cavendish is a fine sprinter , one of the very best ever and has great positional nous, but to me he is not a great cyclist compared to a number of great overall riders. Sorry chaps.!!


Do you honestly believe that when the Maillot Vert was introduced (1953) this was put in place as a 'clever marketing ruse'?

You have absolutely no idea how important (or unimportant) this jersey is to cycling fans because you're not really one yourself (watching one race, once a year and pretending to be an expert doesn't count).

You only have to listen to the opinions of pro cyclists about Cavendish to know what standing he has in the sport.

What was your opinion of Chris Hoy winning SPOTY? He wouldn't be doing so well in those mountain stages would he? You have to be pragmatic enough to accept that pro-cycling has many different facets, and just because you don't appreciate one of them, it doesn't make it irrelevant. Fabian Cancellara/Tom Boonen - great cyclists or not? How about Oscar Freire?
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Laps » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:24 pm

Perhaps in the SPOTY result you can see a metaphor for the standing and progress of two British sports.

Mark Cavendish 169,152
Mo Farah 29,780

Cycling is sprinting ahead, well run, 34 Senior World or Olympic Championship wins in the last four years, getting ever more popular.
Athletics jogging along, stuck in a rut. One of the most admirable and deserving of athletes picking up crumbs in the public vote.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby djlovesyou » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:56 pm

Laps wrote:Perhaps in the SPOTY result you can see a metaphor for the standing and progress of two British sports.

Mark Cavendish 169,152
Mo Farah 29,780

Cycling is sprinting ahead, well run, 34 Senior World or Olympic Championship wins in the last four years, getting ever more popular.
Athletics jogging along, stuck in a rut. One of the most admirable and deserving of athletes picking up crumbs in the public vote.


But golf and cricket, both hugely successful sports in this country. Obviously very well run currently, and both extremely well off in terms of funding and sponsorship didn't do much better in terms of the public vote.

I'm not sure why we can't just agree that perhaps maybe Cavendish deserved to win.
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