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SPOTY

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SPOTY

Postby Guto Nyth Bran » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:33 pm

No shock - Mo Farah and Dai Greene both nominated for the BBC Sports Personality of the Year.
The other candidates being two cricketers, Andrew Strauss and Alastair Cook, three golfers (Rory McIlroy, Darren Clarke, Luke Donald), Amir Khan from boxing, Andy Murray from tennis and Mark Cavendish from cycling.
Cavendish is favourite at 5/4 in the betting ahead of Clarke and McIlroy.
Mo is around 8/1 4th favourite with Dai an outsider at 33/1
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Geoff » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:50 pm

Charity says men only BBC Sports Personality shortlist is "disappointing"

November 28 - A charity group representing women's sport in Britain has expressed its disappointment that the shortlist of 10 contenders for this year's BBC Sports Personality of the Year, released tonight, does not contain a single woman.

http://www.insidethegames.biz/latest/15 ... ppointingq

It's similar to something else that really bugs me. All the talk about the GB mens football team and whether all home nations should play and whether football should be included as it's not the pinnacle of the sport. Everyone forgets the women for whom it is the pinnacle of their sport.

Not a vintage year for women's sport but surely one or two deserved to be included. The Manchester Evening News nominated Paul Scholes, Dimitar berbatov, Yaya Toure and Patrick Vieira!
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Kermit » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:22 pm

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Re: SPOTY

Postby flemaldinhio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:05 am

No Alistair Brownlee, Helen Jenkins or Chrissie Wellington??
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Re: SPOTY

Postby larkim » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:20 pm

The key is in the title - sports PERSONALITY of the year.

And that's in a world where personality = celebrity

Given that the shortlist is created by sports editors of major newspapers, I suppose the measure would be column inches achieved per individual. It would be an interesting exercise to see the stats of "numbers of name checks per paper" vs their shortlisting.

Personally, I'm pleased to see that Mo made every top 10 list bar 2, and in terms of british athletes I can't see which other athlete, male or female, could have a shout at getting into that list.

In terms of the sexism, I tend to the view that the best sportspeople (by sheer achievement in individual performances) tend to be male - show me a woman that can run 9.58s 100m? The best golf is played by men, the best football is played by men, the fastest runners are men, the highest jumpers are men, the best tennis players are men. I don't think its overtly sexist to recognise that.

That's not to say that in a SPOTY type competition where its not just the sporting achievement which is being recognised that the shortlists should always be male; female achievements where they stand out either on an individual or team basis are equally worthy of recognition. But it shouldn't come as any surprise that for most sports other than athletics, the high profile events are the male events, and therefore the wider choice of sports personalities exist.

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Re: SPOTY

Postby marsh rat » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:44 pm

Surely the question should be, Why does anyone take this award seriously. Any award where NUTS magazine has a say in who is shortlisted should be boycotted by any reasonable sports fan.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Ursus » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:39 pm

Sorry Mo and Dai, but my vote's going to the man who finished 130th in his main event of the year. Step forward Cav :D :D
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Laps » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:50 pm

Not sure how much credibility is left in SPOTY. Imo Cavendish should win comfortably and Mo thoroughly deserves a place on the podium. The golfers have done well but difficult to choose between them for the other podium place. Dai is one of the elite in a 'small' event, and has a way to go.

I think that Cavendish had two targets this year - the Tour de France Green Jersey and the World Championship Road Race and won them both. A world superstar in his sport.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby shivfan » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:18 pm

SPOTY lost all credibility in my eyes when Ryan Giggs won it in 2009....

There are a few flaws with SPOTY, which is why I don't watch it.

1) sportsmen and women don't compete against each other normally, so why should they do it now? YOu should have separate awards for sportsmen and sportswomen....

2) Is this a sporting achievement award, or a sports popularity award? THis is not something for the public to vote on, otherwise an underachieving footballer will always win. THe awards should be decided by a panel of former sportsmen and women.

Just because it's run by a radio station (BBC), doesn't mean it has to be cheapened to the point where it has no value. Radio Jamaica (RJR) runs the Jamaican equivalent, and they separate the genders, and they have a panel of sports-people who choose the winners. THey certainly don't throw it open to public voting! Here's the winners in 2008, and the publicity they got from it was fine, and devoid of the controversy that always seems to dog SPOTY....

http://www.iaaf.org/news/kind=100/newsid=49310.html
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Re: SPOTY

Postby mump boy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:55 pm

larkim wrote: I don't think its overtly sexist to recognise that.

Matt


I do

are you telling me that Scott Ovarall running 2.10.55 is a better 'sheer achievement in individual performance' than Paula running 2.15.25 :shock: :shock:
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Re: SPOTY

Postby GBSupporter » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:47 pm

I used to watch SPOTY.I was only interested in seeing the sports highlights and reliving the moment .The Beeb no longer has the rights to show highlights .Its more like those silly awards programmes forced upon us nowadays.
As for the male shortlist theres some notable names missing none more so than Alaistair Brownlee . So I think the ladies are in good company
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Kermit » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:45 pm

Shiv

BBC is a tv/radio company. The competition is called Sports "Personality". Last year's winner had a team lobbying from last summer! IMO Ryan Giggs did deserve his award as the PFA players player of the year and the professional writers player of the year.

Where the awards have become stupid is in the fact that lads mags editors have a vote. Personally I think that the voting panel should be past winners of the award.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby GBSupporter » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:58 am

Personally I think the programme should be axed .
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Laps » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:23 pm

I think the SPOTY programme has a place. It still seems to attract anyone who's anyone in British sport and is the place on TV where the sporting achievements of the year get a proper review.

However with the Giggs vote two years ago and now the lack of any female nominations there is a danger of it losing all credibility.

Ryan 'Superinjunction' Giggs was certainly worthy of a lifetime award at some point, but he spent much of 2009 warming the bench while his teammates won trophies. He won SPOTY on a sentimental public vote of Man Utd and Welsh fans, supplemented by block voting from betting syndicates who influenced the surprise nomination then backed Giggs at long odds. Everyone in the betting fraternity knew about the gamble as it gathered pace. Farcical is the only way to describe it, but bound to happen sometimes with public phone-in votes.

The lack of female nominations is a more immediate threat to SPOTY's credibility imo and also raises more general questions about media coverage of sport. There obviously were sportswomen worthy of a place in the ten.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby chaz_78 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:47 pm

There was a time when our athletes were always in contention for this award and a World Champ would have had a terrific shot at winning, look at Liz MColgan, Fatima etc.

Apart from Jessica's 2 3rd places nobody since Kelly has come close. Paula, Christine & Phillips never had a sniff when they were World Champions.

It's always been a dubious award at times though:

Greg Rusedski - A weak year but I've never heard anyone actually say they like him, including his fellow players!
Zara Phillips - World Champ but no way she would have won had she not been a member of the royal family, ditto Princess Anne
Damon Hill - Admits himself that he was embarrassed to beat Sally Gunnell in 1994 when he didn't even win the World Championship

The Formula One brigade always have a big say, the same with the Golfers and it seems as much about the campaigns these days. Mo might sneak a runner's up spot but I don't think Dai has much of a chance which is a shame
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Ursus » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:20 pm

chaz_78 wrote:Paula, Christine & Phillips never had a sniff when they were World Champions.


No, but Paula did win in 2002.

Last male athlete to win was Edwards in 95. Since then Paula & Kelly have both won.

A British athletics winner at London 2012 has to be in with a real shout next year.....
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Kermit » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:23 pm

Laps which Football team do you follow?
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Exile » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:36 pm

Every year we get the same misundertsanding about the definition of the word "personality" in the title of this award. There are two main definitions of this word. One is "the visible aspects of one's character", which is the most common definition these days, while the other is essentially "a person". Back when the award was first started, the meaning of personality in this context was the second of the two, and went hand in hand with the notion of "television personalities", i.e. "people who are on tv". The award is essentially a sporting achievement award, not an award for those sports people with the best personalities. It would be better called "sportsperson of the year".

Hearing people constantly refer to the "personalities" of the contenders is frustrating. On sporting achievements alone, my personal view is that Cavendish should win and there is a definite case that some of Britain's female world champions should be in ahead of the likes of Andy Murray (who I think is an excellent tennis player, but less deserving of this type of recognition than world champions like Tweddle, Stevenson, Payne and Adlington).

As an aside, part of the problem is the lack of media exposure that some of these people get as a result of their sports not being regularly televised.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby gruffalo » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:05 pm

Most of the people on the short list and the women "left out" lets face it have very little public personality and some of the athletes suggested and not on the list are in obscure sports.

Can anybody deny Britains Greatest Olympian Steve Redgrave unworthy or Daley Thompson. Both had some sort of public personality. I remember the music stopping in a nightclub while everybody watched Steve Redgraves win - Don't think anybody would be doing anything similar for Rebecca Adlington or some triathlon athlete.

I'm afraid the current list (and generally modern sportspersons) are personality-less (if there is such a word).

If it was down to sporting achievement being the main driver how do you assess a persons sporting achievements anyway across a multitude of sports. Its like comparing apples and cheese.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby sidelined » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:13 pm

Gruffalo, I think you're doing Rebecca Adlington a disservice there. I think she has lots of 'personality'. But the public can't judge the character of sportspeople like Kerri-Ann Payne and Chrissie Wellington and Beth Tweddle if they don't get sufficient media coverage. If it's about achievement, then I don't see that a sport's obscurity is relevant really. Obscurity doesn't necessarily mean that the level of competition is poor.

larkim wrote:In terms of the sexism, I tend to the view that the best sportspeople (by sheer achievement in individual performances) tend to be male - show me a woman that can run 9.58s 100m? The best golf is played by men, the best football is played by men, the fastest runners are men, the highest jumpers are men, the best tennis players are men. I don't think its overtly sexist to recognise that.


I find larkim's attitude to women in sport really depressing. When you were watching Kelly Holmes winning the 800 gold in Athens, were you really thinking, 'This is rubbish because they're running 1.56 not 1.46'? I was thinking, 'What a fantastic race.' To me it's all about the competition. What women's sport needs is the same kind of media exposure and sponsorship and professional opportunities that men's sport gets. One of the great things about athletics is that women get to compete on the same stage as men.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Kermit » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:50 pm

I have just seen this tweet, albeit 23 hours late!

William Hill Sportswoman of the Year Award introduced following absence of females in BBCSPOTY.Votes accepted online/in shops
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Re: SPOTY

Postby chaz_78 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:04 pm

Novak Djokovic for overseas personality?

Very few sportswomen have won this award too and only 1 in the last 20 years, Martina Hingis in 1997.

Serena Williams at her best was equally as dominant as Federer or Nadal and actually held all 4 majors at the same time, something neither of those have done.

Jennifer Capriati's comeback was equally as inspiring as Ivanisevic's in 2001 and she actually won 2 Grand Slams back to back that year, made the semi's of the other 2 and became world No.1

Cathy Freeman, surely one of the most iconic athletes of recent times but no award? Yet Mo Greene was deemed worthy the previous year.

I'm not saying those men didn't deserve it as they're all great in their own right but it just shows that very few sportswomen command the same attention as the men
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Re: SPOTY

Postby LiamRiley » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:35 pm

While the lack of women is disappointing (Adlington is both successful and a household name - really unsure why she wasn't chosen), it's a shame that Alistair Brownlee didn't make the list. He has been consistently great for a few years now. I feel that triathlon is really one of those sports that is bubbling-under. There's absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be making the back pages with relative frequency.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Ursus » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:08 pm

gruffalo wrote:I remember the music stopping in a nightclub while everybody watched Steve Redgraves win - Don't think anybody would be doing anything similar for Rebecca Adlington or some triathlon athlete.


I reckon they would if someone was going for no5.....it was the sheer weight of Redgrave's achievement that stopped the country, not his personality.

Unless I really don't like the cut of someone's jib, my vote simply goes to whoever I think has delivered the best performances of the year at global level.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby sidelined » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:38 am

Some interesting stats here: women's sport gets 5% of media coverage and 0.5% of sponsorship money:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... NTCMP=SRCH
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Re: SPOTY

Postby larkim » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:46 pm

sidelined wrote:
larkim wrote:In terms of the sexism, I tend to the view that the best sportspeople (by sheer achievement in individual performances) tend to be male - show me a woman that can run 9.58s 100m? The best golf is played by men, the best football is played by men, the fastest runners are men, the highest jumpers are men, the best tennis players are men. I don't think its overtly sexist to recognise that.


I find larkim's attitude to women in sport really depressing. When you were watching Kelly Holmes winning the 800 gold in Athens, were you really thinking, 'This is rubbish because they're running 1.56 not 1.46'? I was thinking, 'What a fantastic race.' To me it's all about the competition. What women's sport needs is the same kind of media exposure and sponsorship and professional opportunities that men's sport gets. One of the great things about athletics is that women get to compete on the same stage as men.


Sorry, that's not an attitude to women in sport. Its a straightforward fact that of all the humans on the planet, the fastest and strongest are male. Now, in some sports that has a negative effect. For example, I (personally) find women's tennis very dull, particularly in terms of grand slam tournements, because the sport is dumbed down in that they play best of 3 sets, and the sheer ferocity and speed of the game is lower. Ditto football and rugby.

In athletics, women jump over smaller hurdles, so the event is diminished in my eyes (steeplechase most of all). They throw smaller devices. But they run over the same distance, and in terms of one woman's achievement in her sport vs other women I would recognise their relative achievment in exactly the same way as I would recognise a male vs other men.

The reality is that male sport (overall) gets more publicity, TV, attendance partly because the male version of the sport is the pinnacle of human achievement in a given sport. Some sports do lose their appeal if they are not played at a "male" level of speed and intensity. I don't think the same is true of athletics, apart from the hurdling and throwing events (a personal opinion).

I don't know how this can be overcome for me, which does challenge my normally very liberal views!!

Matt
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Re: SPOTY

Postby sidelined » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:01 pm

larkim wrote:The reality is that male sport (overall) gets more publicity, TV, attendance partly because the male version of the sport is the pinnacle of human achievement in a given sport. Some sports do lose their appeal if they are not played at a "male" level of speed and intensity. I don't think the same is true of athletics, apart from the hurdling and throwing events (a personal opinion).


larkim, I don't think that men get 95% of print media coverage because of their physiology. I think it's mostly to do with social and cultural conditioning. Sport is still seen as a chiefly male arena. To succeed in it you need muscles, sweat and aggression, none of which are seen as female, or more specifically 'feminine' attributes. If you doubt this attitude is still prevalent try reading this toxic little piece from misogyny central, aka the Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... thing.html

In the comments section of the Guardian article I posted above there are women talking about getting verbal abuse - especially derogatory terms for lesbian - shouted at them for playing football at university (of all places), as well as inferior access to coaching and facilities.

Britain lags behind some other European countries which have women's professional leagues in various sports. Netball is an interesting example to consider in the light of larkim's views because it's a women-only sport and therefore can't possibly be considered to be an inferior version of a male game. Britain has produced the current world champions. Did you know that? Me neither.

I think media coverage, and attitudes and participation can and should all improve for women's sport.
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Re: SPOTY

Postby mump boy » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:27 pm

larkim wrote:
sidelined wrote:
larkim wrote:In terms of the sexism, I tend to the view that the best sportspeople (by sheer achievement in individual performances) tend to be male - show me a woman that can run 9.58s 100m? The best golf is played by men, the best football is played by men, the fastest runners are men, the highest jumpers are men, the best tennis players are men. I don't think its overtly sexist to recognise that.


I find larkim's attitude to women in sport really depressing. When you were watching Kelly Holmes winning the 800 gold in Athens, were you really thinking, 'This is rubbish because they're running 1.56 not 1.46'? I was thinking, 'What a fantastic race.' To me it's all about the competition. What women's sport needs is the same kind of media exposure and sponsorship and professional opportunities that men's sport gets. One of the great things about athletics is that women get to compete on the same stage as men.


Sorry, that's not an attitude to women in sport. Its a straightforward fact that of all the humans on the planet, the fastest and strongest are male. Now, in some sports that has a negative effect. For example, I (personally) find women's tennis very dull, particularly in terms of grand slam tournements, because the sport is dumbed down in that they play best of 3 sets, and the sheer ferocity and speed of the game is lower. Ditto football and rugby.

In athletics, women jump over smaller hurdles, so the event is diminished in my eyes (steeplechase most of all). They throw smaller devices. But they run over the same distance, and in terms of one woman's achievement in her sport vs other women I would recognise their relative achievment in exactly the same way as I would recognise a male vs other men.

The reality is that male sport (overall) gets more publicity, TV, attendance partly because the male version of the sport is the pinnacle of human achievement in a given sport. Some sports do lose their appeal if they are not played at a "male" level of speed and intensity. I don't think the same is true of athletics, apart from the hurdling and throwing events (a personal opinion).

I don't know how this can be overcome for me, which does challenge my normally very liberal views!!

Matt


oh dear :oops:
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Re: SPOTY

Postby mump boy » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:33 pm

sidelined wrote:
larkim wrote:The reality is that male sport (overall) gets more publicity, TV, attendance partly because the male version of the sport is the pinnacle of human achievement in a given sport. Some sports do lose their appeal if they are not played at a "male" level of speed and intensity. I don't think the same is true of athletics, apart from the hurdling and throwing events (a personal opinion).


larkim, I don't think that men get 95% of print media coverage because of their physiology. I think it's mostly to do with social and cultural conditioning. Sport is still seen as a chiefly male arena. To succeed in it you need muscles, sweat and aggression, none of which are seen as female, or more specifically 'feminine' attributes. If you doubt this attitude is still prevalent try reading this toxic little piece from misogyny central, aka the Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... thing.html

In the comments section of the Guardian article I posted above there are women talking about getting verbal abuse - especially derogatory terms for lesbian - shouted at them for playing football at university (of all places), as well as inferior access to coaching and facilities.

Britain lags behind some other European countries which have women's professional leagues in various sports. Netball is an interesting example to consider in the light of larkim's views because it's a women-only sport and therefore can't possibly be considered to be an inferior version of a male game. Britain has produced the current world champions. Did you know that? Me neither.

I think media coverage, and attitudes and participation can and should all improve for women's sport.


One of the best sporting contests i have ever seen was the netaball final at the CG last year

i was jumping around my roon shouting at the tv and i've never watched a netball match before and unfortunately haven't had the chance since

I'd recommend watching the whole match but you could just watch from the 4th quarter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBz3RuIR ... re=related
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Re: SPOTY

Postby Kermit » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:47 pm

Netball has made massive strides starting 18 months before the Manchester CG when they started using strength & conditioning coaches (I started with 2 of the squad 6 months before the national set up!). The biggest change happened just over 2 years ago when Sky pumped £m into the sport and teams suddenly became franchised.

Great sport to watch at all levels.
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