Athletics Weekly | 2018 World Indoor Championships - Athletics Weekly

2018 World Indoor Championships

This topic contains 294 replies, has 29 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of dpickup dpickup 3 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #81029
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    Darkside

    I care about the Commonwealth’s. In fact I love this festival of sport.

    I can’t be alone, can I ? ………….

    #81038
    Profile photo of sovietvest
    sovietvest
    Participant

    I took my girls up to Brum for Saturday and Sunday. I thought the event was run every bit as brilliantly as London ’17. The atmosphere with the lights and athlete entrances was fantastic and went down really well with the girls (aged 13 and 11). I’ve never enjoyed field events more – we had a great view of the WTJ and both PVs – partly because you are so close indoors but also the programme gave them space and attention.

    I thought the W3000 and W1500 were both classics and I’d rate Muir’s performances as the equal of Kelly H in Athens. Much as I was delighted for KJT and Andy Pozzi, their gold performances cannot compare to the quality of Muir’s.

    I bow to Steve’s superior predicting capabilities (I was expecting 3-4 medals) but I would like everyone to know that at the start of the 4×400 last leg, I turned to my youngest and said: “Watch that Pole, he’s a psycho and might catch the American.”

    #81041
    Profile photo of philipo
    philipo
    Participant

    Laura performances this w/e in 2 events is never to be compared to a double Gold medal Olympic champion in Athens, running against stacked fields including a few Russian dopers… . absurd and a typical example of judgment disappearing in cloud cuckoo land.
    I have predicted that LM will not win Gold in the big ones, unless and until she develops the killing change of pace necessary. Not seen the evidence so far.
    I await next years WC and the next OG to confirm my view on her, despite her abilities.

    #81044
    Profile photo of sovietvest
    sovietvest
    Participant

    Laura performances this w/e in 2 events is never to be compared to a double Gold medal Olympic champion in Athens, running against stacked fields including a few Russian dopers… . absurd and a typical example of judgment disappearing in cloud cuckoo land.
    I have predicted that LM will not win Gold in the big ones, unless and until she develops the killing change of pace necessary. Not seen the evidence so far.
    I await next years WC and the next OG to confirm my view on her, despite her abilities.

    I live in the cloud cuckoo land where Muir has run 3:55 versus Holmes’ 3:57. Where Hassan and Dibaba are vastly superior athletes to Tomashova and Cioncan. Where a 2:31.6 1000m is jaw droppingly fast (even for a straight 1000m). Care to dispute any of that? I don’t know against what possible criteria you could conclude that the Athens field compares to the Rio, London or Birmingham fields. Put Muir into the Athens ’04 1500m and she would win.

    You’re right – Muir is HIGHLY unlikely to win a gold at global level. There are four reasons: Kipyego, Obiri, Dibaba and Hassan. Nothing to do with the lack of a killing change of pace. You need that in a race like the M1500 yesterday, not when someone is making a long run for home.

    #81047
    Profile photo of trevorp
    trevorp
    Participant

    … Muir has run 3:55 …

    And looking at the list of all-time performances, Laura’s is the first one I am completely comfortable with.

    #81048
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    Muir v Holmes

    An interesting debate, guys.

    Holmes, of course, was much faster over 800, and had the bad luck to miss out on so many years when she might have gone quicker over 1500. She also had something steely about her which leads me to think she was always capable of pulling something out of her mental locker if needed. Unfortunately she didn’t have many years free from the treatment table.
    Muir on the other hand has years ahead of her to go faster, and has a wider range of ability.

    The jury is out for me; I’m staying on the fence! But its clear they are likely to both feature in our Hall of Fame.

    #81131
    Profile photo of luckyspikes
    LuckySpikes
    Participant

    I live in the cloud cuckoo land where Muir has run 3:55 versus Holmes’ 3:57. Where Hassan and Dibaba are vastly superior athletes to Tomashova and Cioncan. Where a 2:31.6 1000m is jaw droppingly fast (even for a straight 1000m). Care to dispute any of that? I don’t know against what possible criteria you could conclude that the Athens field compares to the Rio, London or Birmingham fields. Put Muir into the Athens ’04 1500m and she would win.

    You’re right – Muir is HIGHLY unlikely to win a gold at global level. There are four reasons: Kipyego, Obiri, Dibaba and Hassan. Nothing to do with the lack of a killing change of pace. You need that in a race like the M1500 yesterday, not when someone is making a long run for home.

    I remain convinced that Laura’s best chance of a global gold is in a race with a similar profile to the 2016 Paris DL race. Get to 800 in the 2:08-2:11 range then hit hard on the 3rd lap with a 62 and run the last 700 or 800 at 2:02 pace. She can handle that but she can’t (yet?) handle the 1:57-1:58 closing 800s when it goes out in 2:20+ for the first 800. She’s got to play to her strengths which is speed endurance off an already fast pace and it takes it into territory where the other big players might struggle to match her.

    Global 1500 finals routinely used to go out at 2:08 for 800 but who’s going to do that these days? My hope is that Klosterhalfen sticks around at the 1500 for a few years and decides her best chance of a medal is to try to run a PB because she has very little finishing kick to speak of.

    #81134
    Profile photo of ursus
    Ursus
    Participant

    Muir v Holmes

    An interesting debate, guys.

    Holmes, of course, was much faster over 800, and had the bad luck to miss out on so many years when she might have gone quicker over 1500. She also had something steely about her which leads me to think she was always capable of pulling something out of her mental locker if needed. Unfortunately she didn’t have many years free from the treatment table.
    Muir on the other hand has years ahead of her to go faster, and has a wider range of ability.

    The jury is out for me; I’m staying on the fence! But its clear they are likely to both feature in our Hall of Fame.

    At the moment there is no debate to be had.

    You can’t influence the quality (or ethics) of opposition you run against, but the hard currency of the sport is outdoor medals. In that, Laura’s still on the warm up track. She’ll turn 25 soon and does not yet have a single outdoor senior medal to her name. Kelly finished with 6 global medals including those 2 Golds plus another 5 Euro / Commonwealth medals. And that was despite some horrible injury problems.

    Laura’s turned in some excellent performances with hopefully her best to come. One day we might talk about her in the same breath as Kelly. But not yet.

    #81135
    Profile photo of philipo
    philipo
    Participant

    Laura performances this w/e in 2 events is never to be compared to a double Gold medal Olympic champion in Athens, running against stacked fields including a few Russian dopers… . absurd and a typical example of judgment disappearing in cloud cuckoo land.
    I have predicted that LM will not win Gold in the big ones, unless and until she develops the killing change of pace necessary. Not seen the evidence so far.
    I await next years WC and the next OG to confirm my view on her, despite her abilities.

    I live in the cloud cuckoo land where Muir has run 3:55 versus Holmes’ 3:57. Where Hassan and Dibaba are vastly superior athletes to Tomashova and Cioncan. Where a 2:31.6 1000m is jaw droppingly fast (even for a straight 1000m). Care to dispute any of that? I don’t know against what possible criteria you could conclude that the Athens field compares to the Rio, London or Birmingham fields. Put Muir into the Athens ’04 1500m and she would win.

    You’re right – Muir is HIGHLY unlikely to win a gold at global level. There are four reasons: Kipyego, Obiri, Dibaba and Hassan. Nothing to do with the lack of a killing change of pace. You need that in a race like the M1500 yesterday, not when someone is making a long run for home.

    That DL 3.55 outlier by Muir was a one off and everyone except Soviet knows that. Any so called true fan who thinks a World Indoor silver and bronze is equal to a rarely achieved Olympic middle distance double( only achieved by Kazankina and Masterkova..( doped as hell I suggest), is suffering from a mild bout of hysteria, in my opinion.
    Muirs 3.55 was largely paced for her over the opening laps, as I recall, but she was found wanting since that time in Rio and London 2017.Have you forgotten those races Soviet.?? I suspect so.
    One has to be objective and dispassionate on a specialist website.
    Any fan whose knowledge of middle distance denies the efficacy of a very effective change of pace is not worth conversations.
    Who were the great British aces at 800 and 1500m.? Well what about Coe, Ovett and Cram ( outran Cruz in Zurich in 1.42 and bits) as examples in this country, not to mention copious Kenyans and many others from elsewhere who prove my point about a really fast final 100-150m and change of pace of exceptional ability which Muir does not possess, at this time She is no Jenny Simpson and certainly not Semenya , that’s for sure!!!

    #81136
    Profile photo of philipo
    philipo
    Participant

    Oh I forgot to mention that Laura Muir ran 3 races this past w/e; Kelly Holmes ran six races to win her Olympic double. Just no comparison at all.

    #81137
    Profile photo of philipo
    philipo
    Participant

    The reason why Muir won that DL Paris race was that the top women who beat her in the Olympics in Rio had the usual down run after the Rio runs, whereas LM had a lot to prove, and ran on at 2 minutes and 43 seconds of the race. What did faith K have to show having become Olympic Champion.??

    #81139
    Profile photo of robo2
    robo2
    Participant

    Muir v Holmes

    An interesting debate, guys.

    Holmes, of course, was much faster over 800, and had the bad luck to miss out on so many years when she might have gone quicker over 1500. She also had something steely about her which leads me to think she was always capable of pulling something out of her mental locker if needed. Unfortunately she didn’t have many years free from the treatment table.
    Muir on the other hand has years ahead of her to go faster, and has a wider range of ability.

    The jury is out for me; I’m staying on the fence! But its clear they are likely to both feature in our Hall of Fame.

    At the moment there is no debate to be had.

    You can’t influence the quality (or ethics) of opposition you run against, but the hard currency of the sport is outdoor medals. In that, Laura’s still on the warm up track. She’ll turn 25 soon and does not yet have a single outdoor senior medal to her name. Kelly finished with 6 global medals including those 2 Golds plus another 5 Euro / Commonwealth medals. And that was despite some horrible injury problems.

    Laura’s turned in some excellent performances with hopefully her best to come. One day we might talk about her in the same breath as Kelly. But not yet.

    a quick look at the times and achievements at the same age shows that their achievements are very similar, holmes at 24 had pbs of 1.56 and 4.03 while muirs pbs are 1.58 and 3.55, homes had 3 silvers , 1 commonwealth, 1 euro and 1 world whereas at the current time muir has 4 indoor medals – 2 worlds and 2 euros, against a much higher standard of opposition

    #81140
    Profile photo of sovietvest
    sovietvest
    Participant

    The reason why Muir won that DL Paris race was that the top women who beat her in the Olympics in Rio had the usual down run after the Rio runs, whereas LM had a lot to prove, and ran on at 2 minutes and 43 seconds of the race. What did faith K have to show having become Olympic Champion.??

    No, she won in Paris because she ran 3:55: a time no clean athlete has EVER run faster than (thank you Trevor!)

    #81141
    Profile photo of sovietvest
    sovietvest
    Participant

    Laura performances this w/e in 2 events is never to be compared to a double Gold medal Olympic champion in Athens, running against stacked fields including a few Russian dopers… . absurd and a typical example of judgment disappearing in cloud cuckoo land.
    I have predicted that LM will not win Gold in the big ones, unless and until she develops the killing change of pace necessary. Not seen the evidence so far.
    I await next years WC and the next OG to confirm my view on her, despite her abilities.

    I live in the cloud cuckoo land where Muir has run 3:55 versus Holmes’ 3:57. Where Hassan and Dibaba are vastly superior athletes to Tomashova and Cioncan. Where a 2:31.6 1000m is jaw droppingly fast (even for a straight 1000m). Care to dispute any of that? I don’t know against what possible criteria you could conclude that the Athens field compares to the Rio, London or Birmingham fields. Put Muir into the Athens ’04 1500m and she would win.

    You’re right – Muir is HIGHLY unlikely to win a gold at global level. There are four reasons: Kipyego, Obiri, Dibaba and Hassan. Nothing to do with the lack of a killing change of pace. You need that in a race like the M1500 yesterday, not when someone is making a long run for home.

    That DL 3.55 outlier by Muir was a one off and everyone except Soviet knows that. Any so called true fan who thinks a World Indoor silver and bronze is equal to a rarely achieved Olympic middle distance double( only achieved by Kazankina and Masterkova..( doped as hell I suggest), is suffering from a mild bout of hysteria, in my opinion.
    Muirs 3.55 was largely paced for her over the opening laps, as I recall, but she was found wanting since that time in Rio and London 2017.Have you forgotten those races Soviet.?? I suspect so.
    One has to be objective and dispassionate on a specialist website.
    Any fan whose knowledge of middle distance denies the efficacy of a very effective change of pace is not worth conversations.
    Who were the great British aces at 800 and 1500m.? Well what about Coe, Ovett and Cram ( outran Cruz in Zurich in 1.42 and bits) as examples in this country, not to mention copious Kenyans and many others from elsewhere who prove my point about a really fast final 100-150m and change of pace of exceptional ability which Muir does not possess, at this time She is no Jenny Simpson and certainly not Semenya , that’s for sure!!!

    Read what I wrote. I said that the two performances this weekend, were the equal of Kelly’s. I am talking about the physical quality of what she produced. 2:31 last 1000m!! Rio and London are irrelevant to the point I was making.

    Jenny Simpson has less of a change of pace than Muir!! She gets medals by letting the fast girls with a change of pace sprint off and then catches then in the last 100m, having paced her effort better.

    I did not deny a change of pace was important but made the point it was not the lack of it that caused Muir to lose in Rio and London. They weren’t those sorts of races They were races with a long run for home.

    #81142
    Profile photo of sovietvest
    sovietvest
    Participant

    Muir v Holmes

    An interesting debate, guys.

    Holmes, of course, was much faster over 800, and had the bad luck to miss out on so many years when she might have gone quicker over 1500. She also had something steely about her which leads me to think she was always capable of pulling something out of her mental locker if needed. Unfortunately she didn’t have many years free from the treatment table.
    Muir on the other hand has years ahead of her to go faster, and has a wider range of ability.

    The jury is out for me; I’m staying on the fence! But its clear they are likely to both feature in our Hall of Fame.

    At the moment there is no debate to be had.

    You can’t influence the quality (or ethics) of opposition you run against, but the hard currency of the sport is outdoor medals. In that, Laura’s still on the warm up track. She’ll turn 25 soon and does not yet have a single outdoor senior medal to her name. Kelly finished with 6 global medals including those 2 Golds plus another 5 Euro / Commonwealth medals. And that was despite some horrible injury problems.

    Laura’s turned in some excellent performances with hopefully her best to come. One day we might talk about her in the same breath as Kelly. But not yet.

    Again, I’m not saying that Muir has a career to compare to Holmes’. My point is that her performances are the equal of anything Holmes did. In the same way I would argue that Peter Elliot was a better 1500m runner than Peter Rono. OK, Rono has the global gold but Elliot at his best would beat Rono at his best. Muir at her best would be the equal of Holmes at her best.

    #81143
    Profile photo of luckyspikes
    LuckySpikes
    Participant

    The reason why Muir won that DL Paris race was that the top women who beat her in the Olympics in Rio had the usual down run after the Rio runs, whereas LM had a lot to prove, and ran on at 2 minutes and 43 seconds of the race. What did faith K have to show having become Olympic Champion.??

    Aside from winning that race because she ran 3:55 as Sovietvest said, she won that race by going hard much earlier than the 2:43 point. She ran the last 800 in 2:02.2 (62.2/60.0) by going hard with the 2nd pacemaker when 800 was reached in 2:09. It wasn’t because the others were on a “down run” it was because that was her perfect tactic and the others couldn’t handle that closing speed off such a strong early pace.

    #81174
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    Holmes had her friend Maria Mutola to beat.
    Muir has Dibaba to contend with.

    (both in my opinion a little bit iffy).

    Robo2 sets out a very good age comparison. Whereas Holmes went on to miss a number of opportunities through injury, Muir is only now fully free to be a full time athlete.

    Strongly disagree therefore with Ursus and Philipo who are so fervently in the Holmes camp that they think comparison is almost a sin.

    On the contrary, Ursus, this is a great subject for debate.

    #81205
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    Very entertaining nonsense, Darkside.

    I’m assuming your rant against Muir’s social status and eating habits might have something to do with the fact she doesn’t like or trust Dibaba?

    I hope you don’t get yourself banned from this forum because your posts make the rest of us on here look sane even at our lowest ebbs!

    #81221
    Profile photo of jjimbojames
    jjimbojames
    Participant

    Have I missed a link to something? What has Laura said?

    Also – you do realise you have just slandered Laura Muir, whilst calling her out for slander of Dibaba?

    #81223
    Profile photo of mikkaf
    MikkaF
    Participant

    “Take a long look at busted British drug cheats. Now compare it to Ethiopian. The truth is the Brit list is long and the Ethiopian list is non existent”.
    16 cases vs 4 cases. But consider https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/aug/04/doping-hotspot-ethiopia-drug-testing-epo

    “Another truth is Genzebe runs clean, Muir most likely does not”.
    Dibaba continues to be coached by Aden. Her manager stated this over the weekend. Aden has coached two athletes who have been banned for doping offences. He has also coached Taoufik Makhloufi; we all trust that his performances have been drug-free. Aden has been seen disposing of a bag of needles outside a hotel room, and he was caught with EPO. Dibaba was staying in the hotel that was raided. She has run 5 seconds faster than the best non-PED-assisted performance.
    Muir is a trainee vet.

    #81242
    Profile photo of mikkaf
    MikkaF
    Participant

    Is Dibaba’s manager lying? He told reporters that Aden is still coaching her. I am more inclined to believe someone who talks to the athlete than an anonymous person in a forum.

    #81245
    Profile photo of mikkaf
    MikkaF
    Participant

    No, I am not lying. I am referring to media reports. e.g. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2018/03/05/laura-muir-reveals-no-longer-speaks-genzebe-dibaba-ties-coach/
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/mar/05/laura-muir-genzebe-dibaba-uneasy-relationship-athletics

    What you are doing is making assumptions, failing to do research, and suggesting that several journalists have simultaneously invented conversations with her manager.

    Her manager is Juan Pedro Pineda De La Losa.

    It is impossible to answer your question because it contains an assumption that I consider false. I have many faults, but pathological lying is not one of them.

    #81246
    Profile photo of luckyspikes
    LuckySpikes
    Participant

    Darkside, please piss off to LetsRun.com where you will find a ready home among like-minded souls for your ranting and raving. Here though we have no interest in it.

    #81247
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    I understand what you are saying, Luckyspikes, but I hope we can prolong the entertainment a bit longer before our non-Ethiopian Muir-hater gets himself banned.

    Its a bit like watching Faulty Towers, the comedy is so rich.

    #81251
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    Jimbo

    From BBC Sport website…..

    “Britain’s Laura Muir has revealed she does not speak to rival Genzebe Dibaba over the Ethiopian’s links to a coach arrested as part of an anti-doping investigation.

    Dibaba beat Muir to gold in both the 1500m and 3,000m events at the World Indoor Athletics Championships.

    Her coach Jama Aden denies any doping offences, while Dibaba has always maintained she is clean.

    But Muir’s coach says the relationship is “not healthy for the sport”.

    Aden was arrested in June 2016 as part of a joint anti-doping operation by Catalan police, world athletics’ governing body the IAAF and the Spanish anti-doping agency.

    Dibaba has never failed a drug test and says she would ditch her coach if he were ever found guilty of doping-related offences.

    But Muir, who won 3,000m bronze and 1500m silver in Birmingham last week, said she did not have a relationship with Dibaba and racing against her was “difficult”.

    “It can be difficult but I think I’ve always said that no matter who’s on the start line, I’ll race against them. The reason I’m in this sport is because I enjoy it and nobody is going to stop me from enjoying it,” she added.

    “It is what it is. All I can do is concentrate on my performances.”

    The Scot’s coach, Andy Young, added: “[Dibaba’s] association with a certain coach is not particularly healthy for the sport.”

    Dutch athlete Sifan Hassan, who won 3,000m silver and 1500m bronze, refused to smile on the podium in Birmingham, which was interpreted as a sign of how she also felt about Dibaba.

    “We saw Hassan at the stairs, she was lovely, it was all great. I don’t think she was expressing disappointment [on the podium]. I think she was expressing her contempt for the gold medallist and her associations,” said Young.

    When asked about Young’s statements, Dibaba’s agent Juan Pineda said Muir’s coach was a “bad loser”

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Profile photo of stevek26 stevek26.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Profile photo of stevek26 stevek26.
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