Athletics Weekly | 2018 ... thoughts - Athletics Weekly

2018 … thoughts

This topic contains 77 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of ladyloz Ladyloz 2 weeks, 2 days ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 51 through 75 (of 78 total)
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  • #68935
    Profile photo of justrunfast
    justrunfast
    Participant

    In terms of KJT and Lake I don’t think it has anything to do with strength and power specifically they are jumping 1.92+ and KJT running 22.7 there strength and power levels are geared towards their strengths and lets remember added bulk may take away from HJ, 200 and LJ performances which for those two would be diminishing returns.

    I see it as this, the difference between them and Jess is I can only remember just having one below par event in any HEP comp, 2012 HJ where she jumped 1.86 but then she ran 22.83 and 12.54 which are phenomenal.

    Especially in terms of KJT she has taken a step forward this year as she PB’d lets be honest her Jav and Shot isn’t going improve dramatically what she needs to do she Jump 1.95, 6.85+ and run 22.6 ALL in the same comp while having consistent performances in the other events.

    #68936
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    Justrunfast

    Clearly Morgan and KJT have developed strength and power relating to high jumping, for example.
    But we are not talking about high jumping (or sprinting) in isolation. These girls are heptathletes and need to address the throws as well.

    All I’m saying is that by just looking at their physiques it appears to me that they don’t have the upper body conditioning that Jess Ennis-Hill possessed. Perhaps that is why we have seen no progress in shot and javelin.

    I might be wrong.
    (I am certainly not suggesting they should ‘bulk up’).

    #68937
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    It may be worth looking at our best junior heptathlete while we are on the subject.

    Niamh Emerson conceded over 300 points to both Shukh and Ruckstuhl in the javelin in the Euro juniors this year. She still finished 4th overall.

    This (apparent) neglect of attention to throwing events (in the UK) seems to be a general malaise which is hurting our multi-eventers. If we don’t get a grip on it the trend will continue.

    Heptathletes don’t have to become great throwers but they do need to be competent. Like Jess was.

    #68948
    Profile photo of ladyloz
    Ladyloz
    Participant

    Niamh neglecting her throwing events certainly isn’t apparent to me. She has a specialist Javelin coach, her throws are on an upward trend & her PBs are better than Jess at the same age. Her throws are certainly at a competent level for her age and she still has another year as a junior.

    Ruckstuhl & Shukh are phenomenal Javelin throwers as Heptathletes and for Juniors freakishly so. Indeed Ruckstuhl was the number 1 ranked European Junior in Javelin. A bit of perspective when comparing Niamh or any other junior Heptathlete to these 2 in Javelin terms.

    Morgan’s problems go much wider than the throws. She hasn’t really progressed in other events either. Even her HJ PB was almost 3 years old before she broke it earlier this year. The telling stat is just 1 Heptathlon completed in 3 years. It’s all between the ears as far as I’m concerned. She has talked about having 1 more go at the Hep but it all feels a bit half hearted to me. If she was serious about it she would have specifically targeted Euro U23s & made serious attempts at aiming for the Commonwealth standard.

    #68954
    Profile photo of justrunfast
    justrunfast
    Participant

    Justrunfast

    Clearly Morgan and KJT have developed strength and power relating to high jumping, for example.
    But we are not talking about high jumping (or sprinting) in isolation. These girls are heptathletes and need to address the throws as well.

    All I’m saying is that by just looking at their physiques it appears to me that they don’t have the upper body conditioning that Jess Ennis-Hill possessed. Perhaps that is why we have seen no progress in shot and javelin.

    I might be wrong.
    (I am certainly not suggesting they should ‘bulk up’).

    This is my point upper body conditioning and body comparisons to Jess won’t = better throwing performances, Jess was 5ft6 KJT and Lake are both 6ft+. Of course Jess’s upper body conditioning is going to “look” better she was 5 inches shorter than both!

    Focusing on making massive improvement in their throws will always be risky when it is not their best events improved power may mean SLIGHTLY improved throws with more weight to get over the bar and on the LJ runway.

    Honestly Lake is an out and out High Jumper and there is absolutely nothing wrong focusing on a single event now is 20 years old.

    Here’s what KJT has to do to medal: jump 1.95+, 6.85+ and run 22.6-7 WITH consistent performances in other events. Like I said I think the throws for KJT have been over exaggerated simply for the fact that up until now she hasn’t had a HEP without a major blunder or sub par performance in one event!

    If and I think she will start to get SBs and PBs during her HEPs at major comps she will medal.

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by Profile photo of justrunfast justrunfast.
    #68964
    Profile photo of ursus
    Ursus
    Participant

    All I’m saying is that by just looking at their physiques it appears to me that they don’t have the upper body conditioning that Jess Ennis-Hill possessed. Perhaps that is why we have seen no progress in shot and javelin.

    JTs, in particular, come in all shapes and sizes and I’ve seen some very skinny athletes hurl the spear miles. I’d put the technical and mental way above the physical although I’ll concede that KJT in particular did look very light in the upper body. But if the technique’s not there, a few kilos of extra muscle won’t be much help.

    Lake’s 20. She has plenty of time to decide what to do. Before we (she) write her off in the hep, it’d be interesting to know what her training focus has been – it’s not every day you get a home WC and my guess is that she focused on the London HJ from a very long way out. But if she doesn’t make it in the hep, it’s more likely to be down to speed issues than throwing. Kind of agree with ladyloz though. And how often have we said that outstanding juniors don’t make outstanding seniors, albeit finalist in both OG & WC before turning 21 isn’t too bad.

    JRF, that’s the point about Kat. She’s not consistent, there’s always some drama or another – across a range of events – and her throws mean there’s no margin to absorb them.

    #68965
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    All these ‘explanations’ are too fluffy for me.

    If you are telling me that no progress worth a mention from KJT’s throws in 4 years is normal I’m afraid I can’t have it.
    And Morgan Lake threw the shot 14-85 when she was 17. So we KNOW she can do it. But three years older, three years stronger, and three further years of coaching later and she has now worked her way down to below 13 metres.

    Sounds like a bunch of PC excuses to me. And I don’t buy any of it.

    I kind of get that the javelin is a bit technical, and there is a precedent with Kelly Sotherton never being able to master it.
    But the shot? Come on guys the technique is simple.

    #68966
    Profile photo of justrunfast
    justrunfast
    Participant

    @Stevek26

    Are you going to read all of peoples posts or reply to some?

    Lakes issues aren’t throwing hers is speed

    KJT needs to be consistent and perform in every event with possible SBs and PBs at major champs, maybe her throws will improve now she has a new coach?

    Shot tech is easy? please tell us more……

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by Profile photo of justrunfast justrunfast.
    #68968
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    @Stevek26

    Are you going to read all of peoples posts or reply to some?

    Lakes issues aren’t throwing hers is speed

    KJT needs to be consistent and perform in every event with possible SBs and PBs at major champs, maybe her throws will improve now she has a new coach
    Shot tech is easy? please tell us more

    That is just so simplistic.

    What on earth do you mean by ‘Lakes issues aren’t throwing hers is speed’ ?
    Morgan has barely improved in any event since 2014. In fact four of her PB’s date back to 2014, and her javelin has only progressed by 27 centimetres in that period.

    ”KJT needs to be consistent and perform in every event with possible SBs and PBs at major champs, maybe her throws will improve now she has a new coach?”

    Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. I’ve seen no evidence of improvement in her throws so far. You seem to be saying all is well with Kat’s performances except she sometimes falters when it matters.
    I disagree. I’m saying her throws are abysmal and need to be improved.

    ”shot tech is easy?please tell us more”…

    I’ll lob that one back to you, JRF. Please tell us what is so difficult about it….

    #68969
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    …..all of this subsequent debate has come from my earlier post in which I said Morgan and Kat just don’t look as strong as Jess was.
    Ennis-Hill developed a physique that looked fit for purpose for all her events, without ‘bulking up’.

    I don’t see that with Kat and Morgan. I said in that earlier post that they look fit but not strong. I might be wrong. Their problems with throws might be purely technical or mental.

    It was just a theory…….

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by Profile photo of stevek26 stevek26.
    #68971
    Profile photo of justrunfast
    justrunfast
    Participant

    You aren’t listening Jess is 5’6 they are 6ft+ girls do you know how difficult it is for women to improve their physique when being that tall?

    Saying they look fit but not strong is an assumption.

    Every event is difficult so I’m not going to sit here and say learning a technique is simple….

    Kat PB’d this year as in has her best total with the deficiencies that keep being mentioned, so her performance at major champs needs to improve for her to make a step forward.

    It’s easy to say someone hasn’t improved in four years look a bit deeper:
    1. Lake hasn’t completed a HEP in ages
    2. I say she a high jumper out and out because I see her weak events as far too weak to challenge globally and by her recent seasons I see even she seems to be gearing more towards HJ.
    3. he HJ is near absolute world class lets not act like improving every year is going to happen especially when an athlete is getting close to medal potential.

    #68972
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    JRF

    My own view on Morgan is that she will (as you say) switch to high jumping full time. So we need not really have much future need to discuss her throws! (or her upper body strength for that matter).

    As a world junior champion she has every right to be confident of success in that event.

    Her ‘potential’ in the heptathlon remains untapped. I’m just not sure she is mentally up for it.

    One last comment on her (and Kat’s) throws. I see no reason why taller, rangier female athletes shouldn’t be able to use their long levers to actually throw further than smaller athletes (like Jess).

    #68973
    Profile photo of ursus
    Ursus
    Participant

    Great argument.

    One last comment on her (and Kat’s) throws. I see no reason why taller, rangier female athletes shouldn’t be able to use their long levers to actually throw further than smaller athletes (like Jess).

    Generally the case in the spear, which is more a pull than a throw, albeit Wolfermann and Yego (blokes, admittedly) won global titles despite only being around 5′ 9″. But I’ll come back to it yet again, if someone can’t master the basic technique, it doesn’t matter if they’re built like Sanderson or Backley.

    #68985
    Profile photo of larkim
    larkim
    Participant

    Accepting that ML is younger than both, and that JEH was demonstrably world class, it seems simple to me.

    ML doesn’t have the speed – her 200m and 800m times are way behind KJT and JEH, this translates straight across into a slower hurdling ability and also knocks onto her LJ ability. If she doesn’t find this speed soon, she won’t be a top class heptathlete.

    She needs to find at least a second at 200m, 5 seconds at 800m, and near enough a second at hurdles.

    And then the diagnosis for both ML and KJT is to find a way of throwing a javelin more than 42m.

    The table below won’t come out well, but I think you get my drift.

    Name		ML	JEH	KJT
    				
    Event				
    *200*		24.59	22.83	22.79
    *800*		2:18.53i	2:07.81	2:07.64
    *100HW*		14.25	12.54	13.29
    *HJ*		1.96	1.95	1.98
    *LJ*		6.32	6.63	6.93i
    *SP4K*		14.85	14.79i	13.14
    *JT600*		41.93	48.33	42.01
    *HepW*		6148	6955	6691
    *HepU18W*		5725	5311	5750
    #68992
    Profile photo of sovietvest
    sovietvest
    Participant

    I hope Lake and her team don’t give up on the Heptathlon. Her PBs at age 20 – even though some were set three years ago – are still better than Jess’ at the same age in 4 of the 7 events: SP, JT, LJ and HJ.

    The best comparator for her though is not Jess or Kat, it is Thiam because they have very similar abilities. Here’s how their PBs aged 20 compare:

    200: 24.59 (Lake) v 24.78 (Thiam)
    800: 2:18.53 v 2:20.xx
    100mH: 14.25 v 13.81
    HJ: 1.96 v 1.97
    LJ: 6.32 v 6.34
    JT: 41.93 v 51.90
    SP: 14.85 v 15.03

    So, aside from the JT – Lake has a set of PBs comparable with the 20 year old Thiam.

    I think everyone who has commented on her speed is absolutely right – but there’s no reason she wouldn’t progress at the same rate as Thiam has. In other words, come Tokyo 2020, she need not be losing points to Thiam in those events. Where she can make biggest gains in her pbs are the throws. If she could throw 41.66 and 14.85 as a 17 year old, there is clearly no lack of natural ability.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by Profile photo of sovietvest sovietvest.
    #68995
    Profile photo of catinahat
    catinahat
    Participant

    A couple of small thoughts in relation to the Thiam/Lake comparison:

    Thiam might have lacked speed over the hurdles in the past but her basic technique is much sounder than Lake’s so her progression I would think much quicker in terms of rate of progress once base speed was addressed.

    Second thought was just to check on whether the 14.85 shot was the best of a consistent seaon over 14.5 or an outlier. From what I can see on power of 10 it was one of only 2 putt’s ever over 14m.

    Finally for me KJT and Lake are putting way too much pressure on themselves in their strong events by losing so much ground in the javelin in this era of great hepathlete throwers. As we saw in London it gives zero margin for error in the good events with the other women so consistently able to throw 50+m.

    Think Lake should stick with the Hj where she seems to genuinely enjoy competing!

    #68997
    Profile photo of sovietvest
    sovietvest
    Participant

    A couple of small <span class=”vm-hook-outer vm-hook-default”><span class=”vm-hook” style=”border-color: transparent transparent rgb(0, 153, 0); color: rgb(0, 153, 0);”>thoughts</span><span class=”vm-hook-icon” style=”display: inline-block;”></span></span> in relation to the Thiam/Lake comparison:

    Thiam might have lacked speed over the hurdles in the past but her basic technique is much sounder than Lake’s so her progression I would think much quicker in terms of rate of progress once base speed was addressed.

    Second thought was just to check on whether the 14.85 shot was the best of a consistent seaon over 14.5 or an outlier. From what I can see on power of 10 it was one of only 2 putt’s ever over 14m.

    Finally for me KJT and Lake are putting way too much pressure on themselves in their strong events by losing so much ground in the javelin in this era of great hepathlete throwers. As we saw in London it gives zero margin for error in the <span class=”vm-hook-outer vm-hook-default”><span class=”vm-hook” style=”border-color: transparent transparent rgb(0, 153, 0); color: rgb(0, 153, 0);”>good</span><span class=”vm-hook-icon” style=”display: inline-block;”></span></span> events with the other women so consistently able to throw 50+m.

    Think Lake should stick with the Hj where she seems to genuinely enjoy competing!

    Good points! Clearly the SP pb is an outlier performance. The same is true of the LJ, when she has gone backwards. However, whilst I think this would be relevant if we were talking about a 27 year old (“her PBs are outliers she’s unlikely to replicate in future comps”), we are talking about a developing athlete. Those pbs achieved by a 17 year old represent potential to develop and with a focus on the Heptathlon, she’s highly likely to replicate them and improve on them in the future.

    At the risk of being a contrarian, I actually think her tiny improvement in her HJ since 2014 suggest she is better off NOT focussing on the HJ. The low global standards currently have really flattered her and she has been lucky to reach global finals.

    In 4 – 8 years, I could see her achieving 6700- 6800 which might even nab a Heptathlon gold (Thiam will not be around for ever – she has a dodgy shoulder and is likely to have the odd ‘easy’ year focussing on HJ). I really don’t see her ever getting close to HJ gold, now that normal service is resumed after the blip in 2016.

    What’s to lose in giving the Hep a serious go – up to Tokyo? Plenty of time after that to fulfil her HJ potential if she doesn’t make it in multi-events.

    #69008
    Profile photo of ursus
    Ursus
    Participant

    Dear Kat….

    That’s all there is to the spear. What’s the problem?

    Steve, I’m sure we could find something similar for the “easy” shot.

    Soviet, interesting post. I guess the key question is how much she “wants” to do the hep. V good points on global HJ standards.

    #69009
    Profile photo of sovietvest
    sovietvest
    Participant

    You’re right, Ursus – this is all a bit academic – if her heart’s not in it, she’ll never make it as a multi-eventer.

    #69048
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    Soviet

    I agree with you in principle regarding the high jump. I, too, have reservations about Morgan’s progress in that event, but tempered my concerns on the basis that she hasn’t been a full-time high-jumper (until this year?).
    If you had asked me three years ago if I thought ML was a potential 6700+ heptathlete then I would have said yes. Ask me the same question now and you would get the opposite answer.

    Ursus

    I’m not sure why you raise the javelin issue. I did say above (somewhere) that I can see how the technicalities of that event can catch people out. I quoted Kelly as the obvious example.
    Shot technique is not as difficult to learn, surely.

    #69080
    Profile photo of stevek26
    SteveK26
    Participant

    Good to see Chris Thompson running so well again. He was a long way ahead of some class performers.

    #69086
    Profile photo of sovietvest
    sovietvest
    Participant

    Chris Thompson – the Darren Anderton of athletics.

    I see him around our way coaching Emilia Gorecka – it would be great if his experience of dealing with injury could help her avoid a similar fate.

    #69094
    Profile photo of larkim
    larkim
    Participant
    #69107
    Profile photo of ursus
    Ursus
    Participant

    Doesn’t appear to have been anything performance enhancing.☹️

    No doubt the full story will come out over time.

    #69138
    Profile photo of carterhatch
    carterhatch
    Participant

    As I understand it the selectors for the England Team met yesterday and athletes will be informed by 5pm on the 4th October …

    https://www.englandathletics.org/commonwealth-games

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